Duffers mum v Sainsburys Bank

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Compliance or non compliance is vey much up for ''debate''

proven use of a credit facility, statements showing use and

payments to an account produced in court are certainly allowing

judges to to conclude that a contract exists and is enforceable

based on the ''balance of probabilities'' rather than ''beyond reasonable

doubt'' as in criminal law.

[citizenB]

Quick update, received another letter from Cabot this morning, offering me a reduction in the outstanding balance unfortunately i still can't afford what they are offering. It is quite an interesting offer though as it is much lower than what the outstanding balance was when they purchased the account, and before they added a shed load of charges themselves. Should I look optimistically on this as possibly meaning they know they don't have the proper paperwork and wouldn't stand much chance if it went to court? Are they likely to come back with a further reduced offer do you think as if I could get this one paid off and dealt with it would be a weight off my mind?

 

Or it could be that they are aware that unless there is a provision in the original terms and conditions that they CAN put on extra charges/interest, then they arent allowed to !!

[Happyhippy1959]

Again Brig it is the lottery of the District Judge, I think it rather depends on what the Creditor thinks is his best chance of succeeding !!!!!!!!!!!! but the law should be the law,,, NO agreement then its gloves off... I am waiting for a discount offer from Crapbot ??? also on that other point the other Barclays ( old morgan stanley ) have nothing at all they admit it as well. Now if this goes the same way as a YB CC I had with them then its game over. They try the usual oh but you had the money etc blah de blah, I am not denying that I want to see the terms and conditions simple. I could say I gave you a loan of xxxx, but with no contract how in earth can one see that all is correct. I THINK DUFFERS MUM IF THEY WERE GOING TO GO TO COURT THEY WOULD HAVE CHANCED IT BY NOW. !"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WILL KEEP YOU INFORMED ON MINE.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi Hippy, That's correct the Judge lottery will all ways

be there as will the premis in English Civil which of course

grows in line with judgements made and the two principles

mentioned already of the many years I have dealt with the

law I have seen dramatic headline judgements change the

law mature and expand it and also ''custom and practice''

impacts to.

[Duffers Mum]

Quick update...why do they always send letters when you are away? Its like they want to annoy you upon your return.! Just got the next instalment, account now to be forwarded to Financial Investigations and Recovery Europe (FIRE) I've seen this name before but not had any dealings..what should I expect and what should I do?

 

Thanks

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Just more of the same nonsense just different phrasing I think. Just passed on for intimidation purposes.

[debt4get]

Quick update...why do they always send letters when you are away? Its like they want to annoy you upon your return.! Just got the next instalment, account now to be forwarded to Financial Investigations and Recovery Europe (FIRE) I've seen this name before but not had any dealings..what should I expect and what should I do?

 

Thanks

you have certainly had dealings with fire...they are cabot...just next desk down....same company same rubbish

[Duffers Mum]

Just received the introduction letter from FIRE..telling me I have to contact them immediately...I don't respond to people who don't say please and thank you...so they can sod off!

 

What is their likely course or action? Does this mean Cabot will stop adding unauthorised charges now? I guess I should just ignore them then?

[citizenB]

Just received the introduction letter from FIRE..telling me I have to contact them immediately...I don't respond to people who don't say please and thank you...so they can sod off!

 

What is their likely course or action? Does this mean Cabot will stop adding unauthorised charges now? I guess I should just ignore them then?

 

I believe FIRE are a tracing agency arent they ?

 

How come Cabot have added charges to the account ? Have they provided any document that gives them the right to do this ?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

As said same old nonsense differently phrased!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Duffers Mum]

I believe FIRE are a tracing agency arent they ?

 

How come Cabot have added charges to the account ? Have they provided any document that gives them the right to do this ?

 

From what I have been told by others who have looked at the documents provided, Cabot should not have been adding interest, but they have added over £2K since they bought the debt from Sainsburys.

[debt4get]

cabot nearly always add interest, to the accounts they buy, whether they are allowed to or not...ignore the idiots..the only time i have answered their letters is if and when the issue an N1 county court claim...but they have never done so, and in most cases don't

[Happyhippy1959]

Oh Duffers mum, I have had that, we are forwarding to our collections though I never heard from them after that. Just kept e-mailing them and telling them it was unenforceable and if they think a blank set of terms and conditions which were a real botch up was a legal agreement then they are more stupid than even I or the rest of Caggers thought. Also gave them a example of good housekeeping, had a Debenhams card in 1993 and the CCA was spot on, could not pick any holes in it. so why could they ( Barclays ) give me a CCA signed and being the one appropriate to my account when I only took that out in 2001.. !!! Mind you Santander have sold my small loan to Crabot now and that is a 2008 bad boy so they have recuperated there loss. Shame. But hey, that can go in the BR pot.

[Happyhippy1959]

Oh and as for the interest, they only tried the 12% nonsense on one of mine, that was a very old YB credit card which they wrote to say they could not enforce. When I wrote to them and told them even if they came up with a CCA I would not pay it as it was not worth it with 12% interest added on they said OH we are not charging any interest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! honestly, it was going up every month !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As debt4get say's ignore the fools, give them a final response in writing saying it is un-enforceable it is your last on the matter, the next time will be to the DJ. I hate CRAPBOT WITH A VENGEANCE.

[Duffers Mum]

I'm still unsure as to whether it is enforceable or not...although most tell me its not! I don't like to even communicate with Cabot or Fire as it is now, as that just seems to encourage them to make even more of a nuisance of themselves..I'm sure any judge would query why 12% interest has been charged, from day 1, adding almost £2K to the debt to date when there is nothing in the alleged CCA which says they can do that! I just really wish i'd stopped paying Sainsburys the token amount as it would be now only be a couple of years off statute barred, as it is, I have another 4 years to wait..and still think they will issue court proceedings at some point

[jackospades]

Phew , just spent 2 hours reading this DM, I admire your tenacity and ability to overcome your fears as you've gone along. Top marks from me.. Am about to start my own journey with Sainsbury's. I think I agree with many on here that of Cabot were confident in winning this case, they'd have gone for it by now.

I will continue to watch your progress. Good luck..

[Happyhippy1959]

Agree with Jackospades, if Cabot were confident they would have gone by now... No doubt on that.... I have a YB Credit card with them for three years and nothing yet..... another three to go and it's SB.... NO CCA = No Enforcement. Dodgy CCA = NO Enforcement or thrown out of court. The simple fact I stick too is this,

 

If it goes to court so what, it's another £1.00 - £5.00 I will have to fork out, that would have been my offer if they had of come up with the CCA, the Court is only going to make you pay what you can afford. They know they have no chance of enforcing yours especially as you can counter claim with interest the interest they are charging...

 

Duffersmum, put it to bed now, Crapbot have both my mobile number and my home number which I gave them voluntarily, now my only call from them went like this, Can I speak to Mr Hippy, YES MR HIPPY SPEAKING, THEN THE DATA PROTECTION THINGY, right Mr Hippy these accounts when are you going to pay, WHEN YOU SEND A PROPER SIGNED CCA, well we have sent you a Reconstructed, YES BUT THAT IS NO GOOD I WANT THE SIGNED ONE YOU WILL NEED TO TAKE ME TO COURT, BECAUSE HOW DO I KNOW THAT WAS THE ONE I SIGNED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well we have complied with your requests, NO YOU HAVE NOT ACCOUNT IS IN DISPUTE, NOW NOT AS TO BE RUDE WE ARE NEVER GOING TO AGREE AND AS YOU KNOW EVERYTHING IN WRITING PLEASE, well Mr Hippy we will escalate to our collections department, WELL THEY WILL GET THE SAME ANSWER ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE !!!!!!!!!! are you saying Mr Hippy that you are trying to avoid paying this debt, NO I AM NOT, I JUST DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT WITHOUT THE AGREEMENT, well we could take you to court Mr Hippy, NO YOU WON'T YOU HAVE NOT GOT THE CCA, AGREEMENT AND IF YOU DO CHANCE YOUR ARM I SHALL COUNTER SUE AND PLEASE NOW I AM PUTTING DOWN THE PHONE AS I HAVE OTHER CREDITORS TO PAY, THOSE CREDITORS WHO HAVE COMPLIED AND SENT A PROPER EXECUTED CCA ( NOT MANY ) SO THEY GET MY HARD EARNED YOU ON THE OTHER HAND WHO BOUGHT IT FOR PENNIES ARE GETTING NOTHING GOODBYE.

 

That was in July and not a call or letter.... Duffersmum, I don't lose one micro second of sleep on this outfit. They can huff and puff as much as they like,,,, this little piggy don't care...

[debt4get]

totally agree with hippy...they have just sent me another letter for an account that i didnt recognise as it has been so long since i last spoke to them..so rang em and said how old is account...oh we've had it since 2001!! so i said statute barred..they said no you made a payment on it 5 and half years ago...so said send cca...they said they did years ago...after racking my brains remember it was for an old providian account, cca useless....trying their arm before the 6 years comes up...it was for 1400 quid a lot of it interest that they have added...she said you made us an offer a couple of years ago of 40 quid for full and final...yeah?? would you still be interested???? uh dont know??...tell you what she said I will run it by the account manager....yeah you do that!!! bye bye..

again if they were going to take it to court they should have done it years and years ago....

[Happyhippy1959]

Good old Crabot,, I have five accounts sold to them, 3 of them not enforceable 2 NO CCA'S AT ALL ONE RECONSTRUCTED AND TWO i AM PAYING £5.00 ( ON £13K ) AND £1.00 ON £770 Now in my reckoning I will be dead and buried before they get 10% back.... they thought they had me because of me house, ha ha ha , it is now repossessed so guess what, they will be getting zilch they need to pray I live to at least 450 years old.

 

I have asked them to write the 13k off but guess what NO,,,, though they did offer a settlement of £3k ,,,, yo I will keep pushing. I have me BR money stashed away because of the shortfall of mortgage secured loan for First Plus....

[dadofholly]

I'm still unsure as to whether it is enforceable or not...although most tell me its not! I don't like to even communicate with Cabot or Fire as it is now, as that just seems to encourage them to make even more of a nuisance of themselves..I'm sure any judge would query why 12% interest has been charged, from day 1, adding almost £2K to the debt to date when there is nothing in the alleged CCA which says they can do that! I just really wish i'd stopped paying Sainsburys the token amount as it would be now only be a couple of years off statute barred, as it is, I have another 4 years to wait..and still think they will issue court proceedings at some point

 

Dont assume the Judge would query the 12% - The Judge may not be an expert on the CCA.

 

The 12% claim is actually fvery naughty- as explained to me by someone at the OFT - you must complain - this is one of the practices that got HFO in so much trouble.

[Duffers Mum]

I have complained for all the good it will do!

[dadofholly]

I have complained for all the good it will do!

 

make sure you update your complaint regularly - it is the weight of complaints that go against these companies.

[Duffers Mum]

Will do..my original complaint only went in in June, so will give it a few months and whack in another one if they are still adding interest!

[Duffers Mum]

Received another letter from FIRE yesterday, telling me to "make them a reasonable offer" as Cabot turned down my without prejudice F&F of approx 10% of the oustanding balance (a higher percentage if you take off all their unauthorised interest) is it worth offering it again to FIRE? I'm unemployed and don't get any benefits because i'm married, so can't really even afford this, but if it would get them off my back i'd do it...or does their letter imply they think they wouldn't stand much of a chance in court? Any ideas of the course of action I should take?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi they do sound rather anxious to get some cash out of this, certainly try them with the 10% again.