babble vs Littlewoods

[babble]

Hi Everyone,

This is one of many debts that I'm trying to sort out (each of which will be posted seperately to avoid confusion) and any help will be gratefully received.

 

In response to constant requests for payment from Littlewoods I followed advice posted on the boards to send a cca 1974 request.

 

I sent the following letter to Littlewoods:

 

My address

Their ref:

My ref:

Date:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

 

1. You MUST supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee, PO Serial Number xxxxxxxxxxxx.

 

2. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974. I also require a fair processing notice.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

 

Signed,

 

It was sent by recorded delivery on 6th May 2007 and it was received on 8th May 2007.

 

It was sent to the employee/address on the letter:

Named Employee

Payment Helpline

Littlewoods Finance Company

Aintree Innovation Centre

Park Lane

Netherton

Liverpool

L72 1LD

 

Can anyone tell me definitively what the dates for default and breach are?

 

I had always thought it was 12 working days followed by a calendar month but I have just seen someone else post the following:

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence........

 

 

Any thoughts?

[pt2537]

Hi,

the regs are clear in respect of the time frames that haveto be abided by

 

when you send a CCA request you have to allow 2 days for postage. then they have 12 working days to comply after which the account enters into default and becomes un enforcable (unless a executed credit agreement is produced of course) after the account enters the default situation,when a further 30 days have passed the creditor commits a offence if they have still failed to produce the requested information

 

 

i hope this clears it up for you

 

regards

paul

[pt2537]

also its 30 days as in calender days not working from memory

[diskmandave]

If you have a delivery date, ie Royal Mail tracking the 12 working day clock starts the day after delivery.

If not, 2 days is considered reasonable for delivery, but why anyone would send a CCA request by untracked post is beyond me!

 

The calendar month is 30 calendar days in default, unless the last day falls on a Sunday or Bank Holiday in which case it's 31 calendar days.

 

HTH...

 

Regards, Dave.

[babble]

Thanks for that. I send all by recorded delivery so that they can't do the "I've never received anything" routine.

 

That means they went into default on the 24th May 2007 and breach on 23rd June 2007.

[pt2537]

the words " you've got them by the balls" spring to mind!!!!

[babble]

The next part to this saga is on 17th May I received a letter from NDR, dated 8th May (strangely enough the same day Littlewoods received my cca request).

 

The letter followed the usual format. Synopsis follows:

Your account has been transferred to us by Littlewoods.

We've been given full authority to collect this debt using any appropriate method defined below: debt collector to the home, default notice, court proceedings.

You must contact us immediately etc etc.

Letter not signed.

With it came a statement showing charges added, including one after Littlewoods had received the cca request.

 

I ignored this letter but did have a quick look on companies house web check service to ascertain the identity of NDR.

It stated a dormant company so I believe it to be owned by Littlewoods.

 

On 30th May I received another letter from NDR, dated 24th May (again maybe coincidence but the day that Littlewoods entered into a default situation). This letter stated:

You have failed to respond to repeated requests to pay in accordance with your agreement.

We're going to issue a statutory default notice.

You'll never be able to trade with us again.

Further action to recover this debt may result in:

debt collector visiting, court proceedings, court and solicitors fees charged to you.

You can prevent this by paying etc etc.

 

On 14th June I received yet another letter from NDR, this time undated but with a default notice underneath it dated 7th June. Conatining all the usual rubbish that these types of companies seem to spout (judging by other posters comments).

Anyway, it says this letter and the attached default notice we're sent on behalf of Littlewoods because I have not paid arrears on my account.

If I don't pay by 4th July the following will happen:

If the default is registered, cra's will keep this info on my crdit file for 6 years.

Other lenders etc etc.

Once the default has been registered we will pass your account to another collection agency.

One of their reps may call at your door.

They may instigate court proceedings.

Followed by, if judgement and an order for repayment is obtained:

Warrant of execution, attachment of earnings etc.

BOLD PRINT and CAPS:

DO YOU REALLY WANT THIS TO HAPPEN?

IF NOT contact us IMMEDIATELY on 0870....

 

In relation to all this I am of mind to report NDR to companies house and HMRC for conducting business while listed as a dormant company.

 

I intend to check my credit file to see if anything has been registered because I'm sure it is illegal for NDR to register a default while the account is in dispute (let alone the fact that the alleged debt doesn't belong to them) and also I haven't given Littlewoods permission to give my data to a third party.

 

A report to the Information Commissioner regarding use and transfer of data to third parties without permission.

 

I have also received another statement with more charges added.

 

More follows on next post!

[diskmandave]

Thanks for that. I send all by recorded delivery so that they can't do the "I've never received anything" routine.

 

That means they went into default on the 24th May 2007 and breach on 23rd June 2007.

 

Yes, that's spot on.

[babble]

Thanks diskman, I've seen your replies on many a thread and its always been helpful.

 

Sorry to anyone if they find this particular saga a bit long winded but I'm trying to get as much relevant info down as possible. It might also help others who are in the same situation.

 

Anyway, today I received a letter from Littlewoods Finance Company Limited, dated 2nd July 2007.

 

Dear Babble

 

If a third party is acting for you please refer this letter to them.

 

With reference to your letter dated 5th May 2007, requesting a copy of the credit agreement.

 

Under sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 we are required to provide a copy of the executed agreement (if any). On the assumption that you have signed the agreement supplied to you at the time of opening your account. We enclose a copy of our agreement, which complies, with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983.

 

Yours faithfully.

 

They have enclosed a blank credit agreement with account number, my name and address filled in. I have never seen this before and have certainly not signed one.

 

My thoughts are that they have sent this thinking that I will be scared and cowtow to them or that my original letter was sent by a solicitor and that I won't risk spending more money. Ignoring the extremely bad punctuation and layout of the letter:

They obviously think that they have met the timescales which they have not. They have also not complied with all parts of the request. The fact they use the word assumption leads me to think they are hoping rather than certain.

 

I'm thinking of sending the following to them in reply:

 

Re: my request under s78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me dated 2nd July 2007, the contents of which are noted. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter, dated 5th May 2007. Upon receipt of the original request the specified account legally entered into disputed status.

 

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement; like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until 24th May 2007 to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office. It appears from the letters that I have received from a company called NDR, that you have indeed shared my data with a third party. This is a very serious matter and I reserve the right to take action against you and NDR under the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation and if you fail to comply after a further 30 days you commit an offence. You entered into a default on 24th May 2007 and subsequently committed a criminal offence on 23rd June 2007. Therefore you have 7 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint, otherwise your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Any thoughts on this?

Anyone have any better templates to send?

[pt2537]

Looks like littlewoods have sent you the same document as they sent me. after speaking to my Tutor (im a 2nd year law student)this even he came to the conclusion that it in no way complies with the requirements of the CCA1974

 

the letter looks good, infact its more or less teh same as what im going to send them in the morning

 

 

regards

 

paul

[babble]

I saw the basis of this letter on another thread, I think they had recently started this process and so were only at the default stage.

I amended some of the wording and tried to make it clear that they should treat this as a complaint. That way you satisfy the requirements of trading standards, OFT etc who say that you should try to resolve matters with the company first before they will look at it properly. Unless Littlewoods come back to me and say sorry we'll cancel the account, set the balance to zero and remove any reference made to CRA's then I'll start reporting! I think that they and NDR should also pay me compansation for misusing my personal data but that might be going too far!

[babble]

Forgot to mention - I am also definitely going to send a nice message to companies house and HMRC regarding NDR obviously conducting business activities whilst being registered as a dormant company. It may end up costing them a lot more than what I allegedly owe!

[pt2537]

Hi Babble

 

it was possibly my thread that you are refering to with regards to the letter. heres the link to my thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/93571-pt2537s-cca-request-against-3.html#post973716

 

incidentaly i wrote to the credit reference agency and told them to remove all mention of my account with littlewoods as they do not have a copy of my signature on a credit agreement which would allow them to legally process my data and disclose it to third parties. i have just checked this evening and low and behold all littlewoods data is gone

 

regards

paul

[babble]

Hi pt2537

 

I think it may have been your thread because I've just checked back and its one of the three that I was looking at to find some more details from.

I do have a little legal knowledge but I find that there are more people here with much more experience and knowledge who can spot mistakes ( a second pair of eyes is always useful).

 

Experience also tells me that if your arguament isn't pretty tight they might be able to wriggle out of it and the last thing I want is to give money to companies like that. Hoping to be free of all this by Christmas! Going to take a look at the cra's in the next few days although the most important thing is to get rid of the alleged debts first, credit ratings etc can always be sorted later.

Got Egg now with Hillesden/dlc, 3 cards now with cabot, 1 lloyds loan. I'm going to be posting threads on those too over the next few days but I thought I'd get the bulk of the littlewoods info on first.

Next is hillesden because they've bought the egg loan and are trying to get stroppy. I don't think they liked me sending mail; including cca request, to their registered address rather than to the address on the envelope they sent with a postcode that doesn't exist on it! I think they were trying to get a quick court action and result.

 

Cheers and good luck