un1boy - N1 issued for breach of CCA request

[un1boy]

You want I'll haggle for you matey?!!!!

 

Long time and all that.......

 

Haha thanks mate....it has been a while, how's it going?!

[dad]

Guys,

 

I have received a "notice of judgement" from the bank - it's basically a transcript of the hearing.....they want me to read it and write back to confirm it's accurate.

 

They said it can't be seen as a transcript nor a verbatum.

 

Is this standard procedure?! Should I write back or not? I'm thinking not....just a bit weird for them to send me this 2 months after the hearing.

 

Did you not email them and ask for their note of the judgment as per CPR 52?

 

Do you disagree with anything in it or is it fairly accurate?

 

An agreed note of the hearing was accepted by the judge in my appeal in place of a transcript - but my appeal was about points of law not considered by the judge rather than how the judge interpreted the evidence (or lack of).

[car2403]

You're right - I never qualify for any help!

 

Apart from CAG help that is.

 

[un1boy]

Jesus Christ:

 

I charge £1.40 per folio (72 words) and I am not registered for vat. I find that usually there are around 100 to 120 folios spoken in one hour of court proceedings, so it’s about £168 per hour. It’s just a matter of multiplying those figures to find out the approximate cost. I take payment by card over the phone, cheque or straight into the bank and I’m content to take payment before delivery of the transcript

Well, the hearing went on for 3 hours but the Judge only wants the judgement and not the whole hearing apparently so that's good.

[un1boy]

Apart from CAG help that is.

 

 

Haha, yeh!

[un1boy]

Did you not email them and ask for their note of the judgment as per CPR 52?

 

Can't remember - I don't think I did!! :-/

 

Do you disagree with anything in it or is it fairly accurate?

 

From what I've read, it's fairly accurate but I haven't read most of it to be honest.

 

An agreed note of the hearing was accepted by the judge in my appeal in place of a transcript - but my appeal was about points of law not considered by the judge rather than how the judge interpreted the evidence (or lack of).

 

Ok....I would have thought the Judge didn't consider the points of law in my case too...hehe....

 

I hope this is over soon....I think I'm going to take it easy for xmas now though.

[un1boy]

Guys,

 

I got in today to find 3 letters from the bank's solicitor:

 

1. Explaining that they have been instruct to take legal action against me for non-payment of the OD account.

 

2. Accepting my proposed payment plan for the OD account (Which I think I might accept actually - they've not even added the interest the court alowed them and I was expecting to pay the full amount, so that's not too bad)

 

3. Accepting my proposed payment plan for the credit card - now this is the shocker because hasn't the appeal judge stayed any action against the order anyway? What should/can I do? I'm going to forward it to the OFT and should I forward it to the appeal case handler too?

[un1boy]

*bump*

[car2403]

Are any of the letters without prejudice?

[un1boy]

Are any of the letters without prejudice?

 

Nah mate - they are the standard letters they send before giving it to a DCA.

[car2403]

What's your question again, Un1?

[un1boy]

What's your question again, Un1?

 

If I accept their payment plan of a certian amount each month, which doesn't include the interest the court awarded - will that supercede the court order, or could they still enforce it? Bearing in mind I was expecting to have to pay the amount in full.

 

As for the Credit Card claim - the enforcement order has been stayed by the circuit judge, so I will forward that to him...anything else I should do?

[dad]

Uni,

 

It is my understanding that parties cannot agree to ignore a court order. If you did make a payment arrangement, they could at any time apply for enforcement of the order and you would be stuffed.

 

You need to get the court to vary the order to take account of the agreement.

 

You need to make sure that any agreement includes all interest so that they cannot rack up further interest while you are paying of the debt. The issues were identified in this HoL case:

 

Director General of Fair Trading v. First National Bank [2001] UKHL 52 (25th October, 2001)

 

HtH

 

Dad

[un1boy]

Uni,

 

It is my understanding that parties cannot agree to ignore a court order. If you did make a payment arrangement, they could at any time apply for enforcement of the order and you would be stuffed.

 

You need to get the court to vary the order to take account of the agreement.

 

You need to make sure that any agreement includes all interest so that they cannot rack up further interest while you are paying of the debt. The issues were identified in this HoL case:

 

Director General of Fair Trading v. First National Bank [2001] UKHL 52 (25th October, 2001)

 

HtH

 

Dad

 

Thanks Dad.

I'm going to send the letter to the court and ask them to vary the order based on its contents for the OD account.

I am sending my request for the transcript to the court on Monday as I now have the money together to pay for it. I will be including a copy of the letter where the bank are trying to get me to pay for it despite it being stayed.

Are there nay consequences that they can face for ignoring a court order?

Also - they defaulted the credit card account when it was held at a different address. Since I have moved, they transferred the accounts to my new address on my credit files - are they allowed to do this because, surely if the default notice says one address then they have no right to issue a default to a different address?

Edited November 30, 2008 by un1boy
Typo's! :-/

[JOSH_IOU]

Been keeping my mouth shut for a while and getting on in the real world for a change.

 

Is the Bundle at the start of the page still the best place to start?

[un1boy]

Uni,

 

It is my understanding that parties cannot agree to ignore a court order. If you did make a payment arrangement, they could at any time apply for enforcement of the order and you would be stuffed.

 

You need to get the court to vary the order to take account of the agreement.

 

You need to make sure that any agreement includes all interest so that they cannot rack up further interest while you are paying of the debt. The issues were identified in this HoL case:

 

Director General of Fair Trading v. First National Bank [2001] UKHL 52 (25th October, 2001)

 

HtH

 

Dad

 

Dad, I have written to court with a copy of the letters asking for the order to be amended - any idea if that's right, or if I should send a different form in along with a fee?

[un1boy]

Been keeping my mouth shut for a while and getting on in the real world for a change.

 

Is the Bundle at the start of the page still the best place to start?

 

Err...I don't understand your post mate.

[dad]

Uni,

 

Dad, I have written to court with a copy of the letters asking for the order to be amended - any idea if that's right, or if I should send a different form in along with a fee?

 

I think strictly speaking you should apply on an N244 and pay the £40 without notice fee and ask for it to be dealt with without a hearing.

 

Having said that people are sometimes lucky when they send a letter.

 

Dad

 

PS:

 

As an afterthought you might want to submit your own draft order on an N24. (a very rough off the cuff version might be something like:

 

Upon reading the letter from the Claimant and the letter for the Defendant and the Court in exercise of its powers under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

It is ordered that:

 

1. The defendant will discharge all obligations to the Claimant under agreement number xxxx by making y payments of £z starting on aa/bb/cc and on the d day of each e thereafter.

 

It is very rough, but you should get the idea.

Edited December 11, 2008 by dad

[dad]

Uni,

 

I am going to be busy in the run up to Christmas, but I have a bit of time today. So I thought I would post up an outline of my thoughts on a skeleton argument as a number of people on other threads have asked me about them. Rather than post all over the place I thought I would put it here so that people can find it.

 

On reflection the skeleton I used in my appeal was not that good, so based on my experience I now use this format, which judges have said is very good.

 

The bits in square brackets [like this] are my comments and need to deleted from the final version.

 

CLAIM NUMBER – [xxxx]

In the xxxx County Court

On Appeal from District Judge xxxx

 

Uniboy - Appellant

V

xxxx - Defendants

 

SKELETON ARGUMENT FOR THE APPELLANT

 

[The aim of this section is to give the appeal judge a very short introduction to tell the him what it is all about. I think you should aim for about 100 words]

 

1. This is an appeal against an order by Deputy District Judge xxxx dated xxxx. The Appellant claims that the District Judge mis directed herself as to the law and was wrong. As a result the order made was ultra vires. In addition there were failures to comply with the CPR which (i) fatally undermined the Respondent's counterclaim and (ii) resulted in the parties being on an unequal footing.

 

THE TRIAL BUNDLE

 

2. References in this document prefixed (TB) are references to the trial bundle.

 

THE ISSUES

 

[The aim of this section is to pose a series of questions to guide the judge to the decision you want. It should be related to your grounds of appeal. I try to structure it so that all the answers you want are all the same ie all Yes or all No]

 

3. The issues in this claim are:

 

a. Did the Respondent have a credit agreement in accordance with the Consumer Credit Act, signed by the Appellant at the trial?

 

b. Did the Respondent's counter claim comply with the CPR.

 

c. etc etc ....

 

If the answer to any question is No then the appeal succeeds.

 

[The last paragraph is telling the judge what is the impact of answers to the questions. It may be that to succeed all of the questions need to be answered a particular way. If your skeleton is good by this stage the judge will have a clear idea of what it is all about, what he is being asked to do (answer the questions) and with any luck have decided you are right.]

 

AUTHORITIES

 

[This section sets out the law you are relying on]

 

4. The Claimant will cite the following authorities to establish the points of law below:

a. Wilson and others v Secretary of State for Trade and Industry [2003] UKHL 40 (TB Flag xx):

Compliance with certain formalities is an essential prerequisite to enforcement of consumer credit agreements (TB page xx para xx);

Where a creditor fails to comply with the CCA74, Parliament intended that the debtor should net a windfall gain ‘pour encourager les autres’ (TB page xx para xx);

The provisions of the CCA74 cannot be sidestepped either in equity or through the European Convention on Human Rights (TB page xx para xx ).

b. xxxx v xxxx (TB flag xx):

....

 

BACKGROUND TO THE CASE

 

[This section is to set out all the facts. It is very easy and tempting to start setting out your arguments here, but I suggest not]

 

5. On xxxx The Appellant took out an agreement with the Respondent etc ...

 

6. On xxxx this happened etc etc (See TB page xx paragraph xx)

 

ALLEGATIONS

 

[This section is to set out exactly what went wrong. I start with a paragraph listing all the allegations as sub paragraphs. Then go through each one in a separate section. This is where you bring in the law]

 

7. The Appellant alleges that:

a. The Agreement produced by the Respondent does not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act;

b. The Respondent did not ....

 

Consumer Credit Act

 

8. Section 61 of the Consumer Credit Act states...

 

9. The Agreement produced by the respondent does not...

 

Respondent's Failure to ...

 

10. Part x of the CPR requires that ...

 

11. The Respondent did not...

 

THE OUTCOME

 

[in this section having taken the judge through the facts and law, then we tie it all back into the questions set above]

 

12. The issues in this claim are:

a. Did the Respondent have a Consumer Credit Agreement in accordance with the Consumer Credit Act, signed by the Appellant at the trial?

i. No, [Put a short summary of the key reasons set out above here, again I aim for about 100 words]

 

b. Did the Respondent's counter claim comply with the CPR?

i. No, [same as above]

 

THE COURTS POWERS

 

[This section covers what the impact of answering the question in your favour is and directs the judge to what he can do. We will cover this once the bits above are done]

 

13. ....

 

REQUEST FOR COURT ORDER

 

[This section sets out the order you want the court to make. It is all part of making things easy for the judge.]

 

14. The Appellant respectfully requests the Court make the following order:

a. The judgment of District Judge xxx dated xxxx is set aside.

 

b. etc etc...

 

Edited December 11, 2008 by dad

[un1boy]

hiya guys,

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

 

I hope you all had a geat time over the xmas/new year period

 

thanks for all your help and support last year - I hope this year everything can get sorted for good! It would have been in the court system for nearly 3 years then!! lol

[un1boy]

Ok, so the transcript requested by the judge has been compelted and is awaiting approval.

 

What would happen now - the court just get on and do what they wanted to do? Will they write to me about it?

 

Dad- thanks so much for your posts above, should I prepare something like that and send it in to the judge now, befoer the transcript is read?!

[patrickq1]

good luck uni and a happy new year mate

patrickq1

[dad]

Uni,

 

Happy new year.

 

Ok, so the transcript requested by the judge has been compelted and is awaiting approval.

 

What would happen now - the court just get on and do what they wanted to do? Will they write to me about it?

 

What should happen is that you get the approved transcript back and send it to the Court. The papers will then be considered by the appeal Judge, without a hearing, to see if you can have permission to appeal.

 

The next thing will be a notice from the Court either granting or refusing permission to appeal. If permission is refused then you can apply for an oral hearing. (In my case permission was refused on the papers, but granted at the hearing. By the way the other side is not present at a permission hearing so it is just you and the Judge).

 

Dad- thanks so much for your posts above, should I prepare something like that and send it in to the judge now, befoer the transcript is read?!

 

Yes you should prepare it now, it takes much longer than you expect. You do not need to submit it until ordered, but it would not harm things.

 

Dad

[un1boy]

Thanks Dad

 

I got another 2 letters from the sols today, saying that I have to make payments by a certain date, otherwise they are taking legal action.

 

I'd like to see them try- I'll ask for damages for harassment if they do....besides, they are ignoring an order made the court, surly there is a law against that? lol

[un1boy]

The approved transcript is back, so I'm getting on with getting the skeleton argumetn thing done above.