Bailiffs and repayment rates?

[chrismc]

Is this just a standard Magistrates Court notice??? if so it will tell you on there if you need to attend or not!! probably not!! OR is it a County Court Summons, there is a big difference.

[chrismc]

COURT SUMMOMS RECEIVED TODAY -

 

I thought I had to be refusing to pay or make arrangements to pay for the council to take this step??

 

I have kept them informed about my IS claim. One of my disability benefits ended so I was told to claim IS. I did so but then was told I did not qualify as new claims no longer receive a family element so I was four pounds over, so I paid the payment for June that I had thought was covered by IS and wrote to them explaining the situation. In the meantime my efforts to find a few hours employment came up and I started a little job which meant I could move off one kind of benefit and on to the much publicized WFTC which I am also still waiting to hear from. Of course in the mean time we have to exist, eat, etc and I have been struggling to find the transport costs for my sons disability support course, a very long distance away from our location. I only have the cable still on because I pleaded with them but hey, it could disappear at any moment!

 

I paid Julys council tax also at the current rate and wrote in asking for a new claim form and informing them that I would be moving from incapacity benefit to WFTC and enclosed my payment receipt number, so they are not missing any payments but they did not come in on time because of all this fluctuation - SO NOW THE COUNCIL HAS RESPONDED BY SUMMONS TO APPEAR ON 8 AUGUST TO PAY ALL THE ARREARS nearly £700?

 

Do I go to court, they are seeking another Liability Order but under the circumstances I do not understand why?

 

Have I missed something?

 

Is this just a standard Magistrates Court notice??? if so it will tell you on there if you need to attend or not!! probably not!! OR is it a County Court Summons, there is a big difference.

[maybelline]

PETTY SESSIONAL DIVISION of -MAGISTRATES COURT

Complaint has been made this day to me, the legally undersigned(Clerk to the Justices) by Borough Council, that you are a person liable to Council Tax....you have not paid. You are therefore summoned to appear at 11.00 am on 110806.

[chrismc]

PETTY SESSIONAL DIVISION of -MAGISTRATES COURT

Complaint has been made this day to me, the legally undersigned(Clerk to the Justices) by Borough Council, that you are a person liable to Council Tax....you have not paid. You are therefore summoned to appear at 11.00 am on 110806.

Sounds like you may have to appear then Maybelline, what does it state in any notes that were supplied with it?

 

or call the Council and ask them or call in and see the Citizens Advice and see what they recommend. It is hard to advise when we do not have all the details.

 

What I can tell you is A Magistrates' Court or court of petty sessions, formerly known as a police court, is the lowest level of court in England and Wales.

 

A magistrates' court is presided over by a tribunal consisting of two or more (most commonly three) JP's or by a District Judge and dispenses summary justice, under powers usually limited by statute!

 

Hope this helps

Chris

[maybelline]

on the back it does say 'attendance is not required if you are not disputing the liability overleaf and you wish to simply pay or make a payment arrangement. Also says ' the council is very mindful thatmany people may bexperiencing genuine hardship and are therefore agreeable to making alternaive arrangements in appropirate cases' ?? I wonder what appropriate means then.

 

Ironically, if I could get back the money I am owed I could just pay them!?!?

[dw190]

on the back it does say 'attendance is not required if you are not disputing the liability overleaf and you wish to simply pay or make a payment arrangement. Also says ' the council is very mindful thatmany people may bexperiencing genuine hardship and are therefore agreeable to making alternaive arrangements in appropirate cases' ?? I wonder what appropriate means then.

 

Ironically, if I could get back the money I am owed I could just pay them!?!?

 

Perhaps if you attend with copies of documents that you are using to get the money you are owed (I take it that's Bank Charges) they may understand.

[maybelline]

yep - bank charges

[chrismc]

on the back it does say 'attendance is not required if you are not disputing the liability overleaf and you wish to simply pay or make a payment arrangement. Also says ' the council is very mindful thatmany people may bexperiencing genuine hardship and are therefore agreeable to making alternaive arrangements in appropirate cases' ?? I wonder what appropriate means then.

 

Ironically, if I could get back the money I am owed I could just pay them!?!?

 

OK I know what this is now!!! I would call the council first and see what they say, if they are going to proceed anyway it is a formality they go through to give them greater powers later on if it comes to that. It is not mandatory then that you attend!! If you do not attend and most people don't they will be awarded a Liability Order then you will get a letter a week or so later from the Council stating COUNCIL TAX - NOTICE OF LIABILITY ORDER or words to that affect and probably give you 14 days to pay in full.

 

However, once you receive this letter, you then need to make an arrangement with them to pay what is owed, offer them a reasonable amount per month. They will more than likely accept this as long as it is a reasonable amount, don't insult them by offering a few pounds a month, they won't have it.

 

Of course if you are not earning and genuinely cannot afford more give them an income and expenditure statement and send this in with your offer of payment or better still go in and talk to them.

 

You could if you want write to the court with an offer as above. Once this Liability Order is in place you will have to keep up payments, ootherwise the Council can pass it on to Bailiffs later on. But I doubt they would do this at this stage unless there were unusual circumstances.

 

On the Summons Notice you have received it should state Date Tax Made, Period of Liability and Amount Due, this wil tell you what year and period it is for.

 

Chris

[maybelline]

thanks Chris, tax is stated as 2006 year.

 

RESPONSE TO MY COMPLAINT

 

I have received my reply to the complaint I made to the council regarding the handling of this matter. They uphold the bailiffs version of events. The bailiff has lied about what he said and how he behaved and the council have just chosen to believe the bailiff rather than myself even though my family were witness to these events i.e. threatening to come back with a van and the police to break in and arguning with my daughter over my shoulder and then lying to the council telling them I shut his hand in the door.

 

They seem to have missed the point that between losing income and reclaiming one cannot just keep paying without the money and they choose to take legal action in the 'waiting to hear period' and then call this, failing to keep to an arrangement.

 

Their argument that the recovery section were not aware of my circumstances is untrue and I have copies of letters I sent to them informing them.

 

In my opinion the council have acted hastily without regard for my cicumstances and have caused unnecessary stress as a result of their action, I have always made offers to pay and kept in touch but they just wanted to be JOBSWORTH and cause me problems.

 

I have already written to them again outlining my new offer which is absolutely prioritising this debt as they can see now that I have moved from Incapacity Bens to WFTC.

 

I have never been able to get any sense out of the staff when I ring.

[chrismc]

Maybelline

 

This is how they all are, they are just not really interested in people circumstances, far more concerned on how they can get their taxes out of you. I have been through all this type of thing too....at the end of the day you have to do what is right for you, I am now writing to the Local Government Ombudsman as the Council are a waste of my time and energy......you just have to keep on and on and on and eventually wear them down, but in your case I would contact the CEO or the Managing Director of the Council direct and if you get no where with he/she (you probably won't as they are just as bad) go to the Local Government Ombudsman, they have to take notice of them!! Send them a time line of what has happened with your case so there is no missunderstandings!!

[maybelline]

SUMMARY OF THE COUNCILS RESPONSE TO MY STAGE ONE COMPLAINT -

 

'I confirm that the council and the bailiffs have acted correctly. Please note, the recovery section were not aware of your personal circumstances when the bailiffs became involved in your case. Collecting money by using external bailiffs can be very difficult for customers, however if the arrnagements made by you had been adhered to, some of their recovery actions would not have been required.

 

AMAZING:mad:

 

so they have acted correctly and upheld the bailiffs lies and believe that sending bailifs out to people in life and death scenarios is an okay thing to do:idea::idea: I have never refused to pay or negotiate but they just love punitive action and causing distress.

 

there is a real communication problem with these people:mad:

[Rob S]

Time for stage 2 Maybelline and good luck with it. I just got a result with my old local council over the service charges on my old flat. Stage one was a fob off, so I went to stage two and they have accepted my complaint and admitted that things are not as they should be.

 

Keep fighting them. As Delboy would say "You know it makes sense":)

[chrismc]

SUMMARY OF THE COUNCILS RESPONSE TO MY STAGE ONE COMPLAINT -

 

'I confirm that the council and the bailiffs have acted correctly. Please note, the recovery section were not aware of your personal circumstances when the bailiffs became involved in your case. Collecting money by using external bailiffs can be very difficult for customers, however if the arrnagements made by you had been adhered to, some of their recovery actions would not have been required.

 

AMAZING:mad:

 

so they have acted correctly and upheld the bailiffs lies and believe that sending bailifs out to people in life and death scenarios is an okay thing to do:idea::idea: I have never refused to pay or negotiate but they just love punitive action and causing distress.

 

there is a real communication problem with these people:mad:

Maybelline

 

That is more or less what I told you in my post above yours, they don't care, just move on to the next phase, go straight to the LGO they will take notice of them.

 

Good luck

Chris

[paulson1985]

Maybelline,#

 

 

I cant belive I have never seen your post.

If the bailiff and sherriff post started by Elsinor had not been moved I would never have seen it.

 

I have recently suffered at the hands of similar thugs to yourself.

 

 

Follow the good advice given by Chris(he saved my sanity).

 

 

Most importantly DO NOT open your door to them.

 

DO NOT leave your windows open.

 

And DO NOT sighn any forms (walking possesion or anything else).

 

 

Follow all the advice I know its hard but there are really good folk on hear who will do all they can to help you and make you feel as if you are not alone.

 

 

Best Wishes

[maybelline]

many thanks, I have outlined my reasons for not accepting the level one outcome. I am going through this because the Local Govt Ombudsman say that I did not give the council a chance to sort out my initial concerns?? It seems I was complaining but only to the revenues section and it needed to be official, if I dont agree with their response at stage three then I can go back to the LGO.

[Ellie968]

I agree - it is appalling -although unfortunately for someone like me who's profession is debt advice -sadly all to familiar and definitely not a "one off". Maybelline - this is what I would do -

 

1. contact your MP if you have not already done so -and also find out who you local councillor is and contact them as well - if you phone your council authority office they will give your the details of your local councillor. Ask him/her what the council's policy is for dealing with vulnerable people. Your son's autism and the fact you are on benefit should mean they should treat you as vulnerable. Ask that the account is recalled from the bailiff due to your vulnerable status.

 

2.Try and get an appointment with a local advice agency or cab. It will help of the bailiff/council know you have sought advice.

 

3. As advised above do not let the bailiff in -and make a note of any dealings you have with them -useful in case of a complaint.

 

4. Don't bother trying to negotiate with the bailiff - as you have discovered they are difficult to negotiate with. If they don't collect they will send the account back to the council - who may well send the account to the magistrates court. Provided you attend the hearing and it will help if you have been for advice - the magistrates may write off some or all of the debt.

 

Incidentally - the council has a duty to try to collect by all possible means before sending the account to the magistrates for a committal hearing - that is why it will have been sent to to the bailiffs first.

 

Well done for complaining to the Local Govt Ombudsman - I would advocate anyone with any similar problems to do the same - I don't think the local authorities or the Local Gov't Ombudsman has any idea regarding how private bailiffs are intimidating people -and it is only by complaining that they will ever know.

 

Good luck Maybelline

 

xx

[maybelline]

many thanks ellie968, feel so tired back soon.

[Guest Zooman]

I am very sorry I have not read though all posts but I would like to point out this.

 

If your Council is adopting a blanket policy by referring all debt over a certain amount to the bailiffs. If so this approach is unlawful and should be challenged by way of Judicial Review. Your LCA have a duty of care to the vulnerable as Ellie said.

 

Best barrister I know for these types of cases is Ian Wise of Doughty Street Chambers, London

 

Also as Ellie said we have to fight this.

 

Bailiffs' notices are not to contain hand written threats or comments; if anything is added by hand it is only supposed to be necessary details such as the time the bailiff called, the debtor's details, amount owing, goods listed etc. I would like to highlight this after having seen 100s of doctored bailiff letters, with added threats of prison etc in handwritten red ink, posted through doors with additional warrant/prison type threats written on the outside of the envelope. I always forward these to the LCA, with complaint letters.

 

If your have any of these types of letters I would love a copy. I will complain on your behalf to your LCA, the bailiff firm, courts and trade bodies. I will also complain on mass once all are in for the year to your LCA.

 

I have over 100 for my LCA this year.

 

My fax number is 0871 9001240 (10p a min) for anyone who would liek to send me anything. I can sullpy my mialing address on requset.

[maybelline]

what is it I am missing here:?:

 

didnt the letter from Stage one complaint suggest that had they known my circumstances they would not have sent a bailiff:?:

 

RECEIVED TODAY

 

Take notice that.....blah blah, aother threat from the Bailiff, in seven days they will be round with a van.

 

I sent my Stage Two COMPLAINT to Borough Council yesterday recorded delivery. I do not accept their conclusion that their action has been satisfactory.

 

This is what you call stress. I had little sleep wearing my carers hat and now am still dealing with this ****. have to get off to work later, only four hours but need my sanity. thanks Zooman.

[chrismc]

I don't think the local authorities or the Local Gov't Ombudsman has any idea regarding how private bailiffs are intimidating people -and it is only by complaining that they will ever know.

They know believe me I have told them numerous times in writing, but they don't care, all they want is the money, that is why I am taking the bailiffs to court and a full report is going to the LGO also.

 

But good advice anyway Ellie

 

Chris

[chrismc]

Bailiffs' notices are not to contain hand written threats or comments; if anything is added by hand it is only supposed to be necessary details such as the time the bailiff called, the debtor's details, amount owing, goods listed etc. I would like to highlight this after having seen 100s of doctored bailiff letters, with added threats of prison etc in handwritten red ink, posted through doors with additional warrant/prison type threats written on the outside of the envelope. I always forward these to the LCA, with complaint letters.

That is good information Zooman, but I doubt the Barrister is much use to many people here, if they struggle to pay Council Tax and fines etc how are they ever going to pay a Barrister unless they can work on a NWNF basis??? but I do not see how they could do that in these cases.

 

Chris

[maybelline]

i am talking with the council at the moment, trying to sort out the payments and being spoken to like i am a naughty child - i am not happy about the conversation at all, they REFUSE to take the debt back from the bailiff -

 

until i can show i can make payments on time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:idea:

 

wouldnt i be better off going in to court and getting it sorted out

[elsinore]

Maybelline, forgive me if this has been suggested to you before, but can you make any payments, no matter how small, directly to the council? If you can get hold of their account details (which might appear on correspondence from the council) then you can pay some of your council tax straight into their account. Don't tell them, just do it. Once it's in their account, they won't send it back to you! Then you can't be accused of being obstructive or unwilling to pay.

 

Elsinore

[maybelline]

thanks elsinore, just cannot understand this mess - however, have come to an agreement on payment plan for arrears and current years tax bill.

 

i have to agree to make a statement in writing that they can go straight back to the bailiff if my payment off arrears is so much as one day late??

[elsinore]

Well, good for you, that's a result, isn't it?

 

From what you say, the council have called the dogs off and let you pay them direct, yes?

 

Do you think you can keep to the arrangement? Is it an amount that you can reasonably find? (I was going to say afford, but... ) Only you will know for sure whether you can pay on time on every occasion. If you can, then that gets them off your back and you can relax just a little bit.

 

Elsinore