Devils advocate time - Using a CCA Request to "Get out of paying a debt"

[tiglet]

No, I'll just immediately default you without sending a letter and then sell it to cabot for £6 after adding £3,000 of fees and interest to "recover my losses".

[tiglet]

Sorry gertie, we would only accept first-born sons.

[tiglet]

You should read your T&C's on the CCA, except we've destroyed to save costs for storage space(only we're not going to tell you that).

[Guest Gertie100]

Tiglet - I can not believe after all my dealings with Greedybank PLC that you are sexist as well as being robbing b*st*rds!

I'm disgusted...

Not even the dog is male...my husband is very lonely!

[SteveH2508]

GreedyBank plc:

What are your default charges?

1 arm; 1 leg or both?

Is it a pound of flesh for late payment?

[tiglet]

Greedybank PLC

"The B*****d" Yacht

Caman Islands

 

Date: 17 weeks after you 1st contacted us

 

Dear Gertie100

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry your unhappy with your account.

 

Like any business, we are here to line our pockets at the expense of poor saps like you. When customers do not have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra blood sacrifices have to be made to Mammon - and it has to happen very quickly. We have to agree to make this sacrifice by charging into your house at 3am and snatching the first available child - if this is a girl, in our experience, Mammon reeks terrible vengeance on us and our share prices go down by 0.000000000000000000001p.

 

Of course it's only fair too, that we're completely open about any sacrificed children before you take up our account. That's why we take care to give every new customer 10 folders full of meaningless waffle, which includes this important details on the 9th page, long after you've given up in exasperation. You can also get up-to-date details about ritual sacrifice and fees at all our branches, where you will be dealt with someone with more spots than brain cells, through our helpline in Borneo and on our website (ripoff.com).

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid these charges altogether - I just can't tell you how at the moment as I haven't actually worked it one out, but stop harrassing me, you horrible little debtor, you.

 

You've mentioned the new guidelines from the Office of Fair Trading on credit card default charges. Quite frankly, we couldn't give a rat's ass. If you look again at your T&C's, you will see that as you have now dared to complain to us, we now own your house, your dog, your children - even you! As you read this letter, armed branch managers are on their way to forcibly remove you from OUR property and transfer you to work in our new call centre in the Sahara desert, where you'll be more bothered about sand and flies than overdraft fees or sacrificed kids, let me tell you.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible - and why I can't agree to spit on you if you were on fire - you should earn as much as me, you ****.

 

Please let me know if there is anything else I can do. If we can't come to an agreed solution after this I will help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman service for independent advice - of course, they'll have to find you first.

 

Usual waffle about help, blah, blah,

 

Ms Underpaid Stressed-Out-Menial

 

pp

 

Lord B*****d Greedy OBE

[tiglet]

Dear Steve

 

If I may refer you to page 9 of our terms and conditions, you will find it is an arm for the failed cheques, a leg for unauthorised borrowing and we will machine gun your entire family if you owe us anything else.

 

Plus this may also affect your credit rating.

[tiglet]

Also, Steve, I have now added £4000 in fees to your account and passed it over to Mackenzie Hall as you have dared to question my authorita.

 

Lord B Greedy OBE

[Guest Gertie100]

BUM - thanks to CAG for all your help over the last few weeks, I have enjoyed being part of this community.

I'm off to nursery to collect my daughter and deliver her to my (now) leader - personally I think that once they spend 30 mins in her company they will withdraw the above communication and beg me to take everything back....

 

Last will and testament

Nothing to no one as Greedybank PLC now own it all - does that mean they own my debts too????

[tiglet]

I am afraid Gertie that we will be sharing your information with all CRA's to ensure lots of DCA's can contact you in the Sahara.

 

I'm off to sail around in my yacht now ... yo ho hum and a bottle of rum!

[sequenci]

what have you done to my lovely thread hahahahahaha too funny!!

[ODC]

what have you done to my lovely thread hahahahahaha too funny!!

You should get Tiglet to produce a deed of assignment to say she/he has the right to be handling your thread. There could be a breach of the DPA here.

[tiglet]

Sequenci, I would like to point out that in folder 8, page 7 of your agreement with Greedybank PLC, you agreed to sign over all aspects of life, including this thread.

 

You have compalined, you have been defaulted and I've arrange for Cabot to come round and chop your legs off.

 

Please note this may affect your ability to obtain credit in the future.

 

Lord B Greedy

 

ps Sorry for high-jacking, I think brain is becomming a bit befuddled with all the morality talk. I'll behave myself now

 

Tigs xxxx

[Guest Gertie100]

just turned my electric off in my ditch which I'm now living due to Lord B Greedy so this is my last post on this matter.............................................................................

[sequenci]

 

ps Sorry for high-jacking, I think brain is becomming a bit befuddled with all the morality talk. I'll behave myself now

 

Tigs xxxx

 

don't worry! i've got all the info i need.

[tiglet]

Hope it was helpful info?

[sequenci]

Hope it was helpful info?

 

it certainly was

[rippedoffagain]

I’m asking this as we’ve been discussing it at work and I think it’s a relevant question to ask, as some of you know I work within this field and we're always keeping an eye on this forum as it helps us gauge what is happening in the real world!

 

We’re all fully aware that many creditors and dcas are pretty slack when it comes to keeping hold of paperwork, due to their incompetence would it be fair for a debtor to use a cca request to try and get out of paying a debt they know they owe?

 

 

I can fully appreciate people who are disputing their liability for a debt if they are being chased for a debt they know nothing of, but what about people who try to get out of agreements they know they took out and agreed to? Is it the creditor's fault for being slack? What do you think the future holds?

 

Any help with this would be gratefully appreciated!

 

Thanks

 

 

it certainly was

 

So what are your conclusions?

[Gingerheid]

Dear SteveH2508

 

I am afraid to say that a pound of flesh is no use to us at all.

 

Please confirm whether or not you are generally healthy and if you have a spare kidney.

 

Thank you

 

A P Ratt

Greedybank Plc

 

On a serious note... I'm off to read up those cases that were posted.

 

Instinct still tells me that there is an implied contract the terms of which can be determined by refered to custom in the trade, so I'm interested to see if I am going to learn differently.

[SteveH2508]

Dear SteveH2508

 

I am afraid to say that a pound of flesh is no use to us at all.

 

Please confirm whether or not you are generally healthy and if you have a spare kidney.

 

Thank you

 

A P Ratt

Greedybank Plc

 

My reply to you, Mr Ratt, is the same reply as I give to anyone who asks "Do you have a spare cigarette?" "No, I need every one." (Same goes for "Got any spare change?")

My kidneys have been well exercised by the processing of many pints of England's finest nut-brown brews. My liver on the other hand....

[hellhasnofury]

Greedybank PLC

"The B*****d" Yacht

Caman Islands

 

Date: 17 weeks after you 1st contacted us

 

Dear Gertie100

 

Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry your unhappy with your account.

 

Like any business, we are here to line our pockets at the expense of poor saps like you. When customers do not have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra blood sacrifices have to be made to Mammon - and it has to happen very quickly. We have to agree to make this sacrifice by charging into your house at 3am and snatching the first available child - if this is a girl, in our experience, Mammon reeks terrible vengeance on us and our share prices go down by 0.000000000000000000001p.

 

Of course it's only fair too, that we're completely open about any sacrificed children before you take up our account. That's why we take care to give every new customer 10 folders full of meaningless waffle, which includes this important details on the 9th page, long after you've given up in exasperation. You can also get up-to-date details about ritual sacrifice and fees at all our branches, where you will be dealt with someone with more spots than brain cells, through our helpline in Borneo and on our website (ripoff.com).

 

Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid these charges altogether - I just can't tell you how at the moment as I haven't actually worked it one out, but stop harrassing me, you horrible little debtor, you.

 

You've mentioned the new guidelines from the Office of Fair Trading on credit card default charges. Quite frankly, we couldn't give a rat's ass. If you look again at your T&C's, you will see that as you have now dared to complain to us, we now own your house, your dog, your children - even you! As you read this letter, armed branch managers are on their way to forcibly remove you from OUR property and transfer you to work in our new call centre in the Sahara desert, where you'll be more bothered about sand and flies than overdraft fees or sacrificed kids, let me tell you.

 

I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible - and why I can't agree to spit on you if you were on fire - you should earn as much as me, you ****.

 

Please let me know if there is anything else I can do. If we can't come to an agreed solution after this I will help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman service for independent advice - of course, they'll have to find you first.

 

Usual waffle about help, blah, blah,

 

Ms Underpaid Stressed-Out-Menial

 

pp

 

Lord B*****d Greedy OBE

 

Is this part about your children true. Will they really take your children in payment for your debt. Whats the no to ring. they are driving me crazy and keep on insisting they are hungrey and I have been on the internet too long trying to get my hard earned cash back for the Greedy bank etc etc.

 

Really enjoyed this thread I laughed so much I fell off the chair and nearly p***ed my pants. Don't you stop now.

[Gingerheid]

Had a read through the first case... I note that in Dimond v Lovell there was an agreement produced, but it didn't meet the specified form. This is arguably different from being unable to produce an agreement in a case where conduct suggets that there is one.

 

I then went to the actual CCA 1974 ...

 

My reading is

 

s61 - an agreement must be signed to be properly executed

s65 - an improperly executed agreement is unenforceable without an order of the court

s127 - the court won't make an enforcement order under s65 if s61 wasn't complied with

s129 - if an application is made under s65, the court can make a 'time order'. A time order can provide for the debtor or hirer to make payments as the court thinks is reasonable,

 

On that basis, my reading would be that if the creditor can't produce an agreement, they can apply for an enforcement order. Although they wouldn't get it, they could get a time order instead.

 

This is therefor just a bargaining tool; you've got to offer enough to make it not worth their while to want to apply for an enforcement order in the hope of getting a time order. I think that they would get a time order; as the conduct of the debtor or hirer (by way of taking the money in the first place) would make such an order to repay it in some sort of way equitable.

 

I'm interested in the fact that the debtor or hirer can also apply for a time order after service of a default notice. This would be a very useful way of stopping getting taken to court for the whole amount when you could bring the original agreement up to date.

[InKogneeToh]

Had a read through the first case... I note that in Dimond v Lovell there was an agreement produced, but it didn't meet the specified form. This is arguably different from being unable to produce an agreement in a case where conduct suggets that there is one.

 

I then went to the actual CCA 1974 ...

 

My reading is

 

s61 - an agreement must be signed to be properly executed

s65 - an improperly executed agreement is unenforceable without an order of the court

s127 - the court won't make an enforcement order under s65 if s61 wasn't complied with

s129 - if an application is made under s65, the court can make a 'time order'. A time order can provide for the debtor or hirer to make payments as the court thinks is reasonable,

 

On that basis, my reading would be that if the creditor can't produce an agreement, they can apply for an enforcement order. Although they wouldn't get it, they could get a time order instead.

 

This is therefor just a bargaining tool; you've got to offer enough to make it not worth their while to want to apply for an enforcement order in the hope of getting a time order. I think that they would get a time order; as the conduct of the debtor or hirer (by way of taking the money in the first place) would make such an order to repay it in some sort of way equitable.

 

I'm interested in the fact that the debtor or hirer can also apply for a time order after service of a default notice. This would be a very useful way of stopping getting taken to court for the whole amount when you could bring the original agreement up to date.

 

Hi

 

The creditor cannot apply for a time order at any time. This is available only to a debtor and if the judge grants a time order, this will give the debtor longer to pay off the agreement than originally allowed.

 

Also s127 (3-5) CCA has now been repealed by the CCA 2004 amendments so only now applies to agreements entered into before the amendments came in to force - May 2005.

 

Also, what s127(3) actually says is this:

 

3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

What this means is that if the debtor has signed any document that contains ALL the prescribed terms then it 'may' be enforced even though it is not in the required form.

 

Also, Mrs Dimond and Mrs Wilson both admitted in court that they had entered into regulated agreements. The CCA provides that if certain formalities are not complied with then the agreement will be unenforceable - FULL STOP!

 

Dimond v Lovell was appealed to the House of Lords. This is what Lord Hoffman said in that judgement:

 

The real difficulty, as it seems to me, is that to treat Mrs. Dimond as having been unjustly enriched would be inconsistent with the purpose of section 61(1). Parliament intended that if a consumer credit agreement was improperly executed, then subject to the enforcement powers of the court, the debtor should not have to pay. This meant that Parliament contemplated that he might be enriched and I do not see how it is open to the court to say that this consequence is unjust and should be reversed by a remedy at common law.

 

Regards, Pam

[greendykes]

Right..I have just read this thread from the start! I found it extremely interesting and helpful. I have 1 DCA hounding me at the moment..1st Credit..I have my own thread up..following great advice from gingerhead. About 2 years ago I had a breakdown and still can't talk to these people on the phone, I had Lloyds, MBNA and GE Capital phoning me everyday. I used to cry and explain to them that they were harrassing me and making my recovery slower. Did they listen!! No..they actually kept it coming and eventually I hide my head in the sand. I have recovered slightly..not enough to talk to these slimballs on the phone BUT even after I state every time in my emails/letters to not contact me by phone they never seem to take any notice. I am so grateful to this site for showing me I am not alone and through this thread how we can still laugh when the going gets tough! I am going to look into CCA for 1st Credit/Lloyds and MBNA who are my worst nightmare. I paid PPI on their card but the insurance company stops paying without any notice ..so I am back to square one with them. I have asked them to stop my PPI but at this moment they haven't, I also asked them to find out why LCI stopped paying as they are responsible for this insurance company. I get so tired of trying to keep one step ahead of these vultures. BUT as I said I have found this site wonderful and it keeps me motivated to fight all the way! Llyods and 1st Credit have still not replied. The debt I am meant to owe actually relates to the amount of charges and interst that was added to my account over the past 5 years..so I am adament that until I see proof that 1st Credit has been authorised to handle this debt and Lloyds reply to my SAR..I aint paying nothing! If I owe it I will pay it..if it is charges etc I won't. Thanks again for the thread..wonderful.

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

Write to the offenders and demand that your phone number is deleted from their records immediately otherwise you will be reporting them to the relevant authorities for harassment.

 

Get your CCA request off to 1st Credit asap and at the top of it write 'I do not acknowledge this debt'. If it's likely to be made up of charges then as you say there is no, or little, debt owing.

 

Also take a look at the threads in the PPI section - you should get some good info. to help with this issue.

 

Under the OFT's debt collection guidelines they are not allowed to demand payment whilst the debt is in dispute, so any attempts at this while they are dealing with your CCA request should be reported to the OFT.

 

And remember, they are no longer in control - you are!!

 

Regards, Pam