PCN Help!

[rjb]

Hello from a new member!

What a great site this is.

 

If someone can throw some light on to this I would be very grateful...

 

I was in a Sainsbury car park with out a pay/display ticket. Warden approached and I drove off before ticket issued. I then get a letter from Euro car parks, with wrong description of car, no contravention code.

I wrote back saying no ticket had ever been given to me or placed on the car, car details wrong etc. They replied saying the usual 'not upheld - account payable etc'.

 

Then I receive a letter from a Debt Collection Co demanding £50 in 5 days.

 

After reading all the posts here, I am a little confused as to best way forward.

 

Can anybody help?

[Filthy Monkey]

Hi rjb, as this fine is from Euro Car Parks, a private enforcement company, then it falls under civil contract law and cannot be enforced by criminal proceedings so be strong and don't give in to them! Have a look through the rest of the site and, in particular, here for more information on how to handle this.

[falcon185]

Hi rjb,

is the car park run by the council or private company? Depending on your answer depends on what advice people can give you.

[falcon185]

JUst seen filthys post,

I agree with him,

they cannot enforce this as is a private car park. The implied contract would be with the driver of the vehicle who parked there NOT the registered keeper. Its up to them as to whether they can prove who was driving at the time.

[rjb]

Hi Filthy,

Many thanks for your quick reply.

So should I ignore it and wait to see if there is a summons to court?

I did read all lthe advice but am a little bamboozled by it all.

I do not like giving in...

[Howard0181]

You can write back as follows:

 

Dear Sirs

 

Re: Vehicel Reg XXXXX

 

I have recieved your invoice dated XXXX reference xxxxxx.

 

Please advise on what basis that you feel that I have entered into any contract with either your company or the landlowner.

 

Yours faithfully

 

=====================

 

Please read the otyher threads on private car parking. Do not pay. There is very little this company can do

[Zamzara]

JUst seen filthys post,

I agree with him,

they cannot enforce this as is a private car park. The implied contract would be with the driver of the vehicle who parked there NOT the registered keeper. Its up to them as to whether they can prove who was driving at the time.

 

By the sound of it, RJB has probably admitted being the driver in his initial letter to them. There are very likely other reasons not to pay though. What do the signs in the car park say? What does the ticket say?

[falcon185]

THe only people allowed to issue a PCN without placing it on the vehicle are Police officers and Police Traffic Wardens. A private parking co cannot issue if the vehicle has left and no ticket issued during the time it was alleged to have contravened parking restrictions.

Personally I would wait for them to take you to court, it will be a very long wait, like a whole lifetime ;-)

[Filthy Monkey]

Hi Filthy,

Many thanks for your quick reply.

So should I ignore it and wait to see if there is a summons to court?

I did read all lthe advice but am a little bamboozled by it all.

I do not like giving in...

 

I wouldn't ignore it, but certainly don't pay it. There are a couple of stances you can take. Firstly, you could write to them and ask them to supply information on who was driving the car at the time so that you can pass the ticket to the relevant person. They will almost certainly tell you that it is not the driver, but the registered keep who is responsible for the ticket. That, however, is not the case. This is a civil contractual matter and, as such, any action should be raised against the driver.

 

Alternatively, you could write to them, as Howard suggests, asking under what basis they consider the driver to have formed a contract with the land owner and also ask them to demonstrate the financial loss of £50 sufferred by the land owner as a result of your parking, as, under English law, a contractual penalty cannot exceed the financial loss sufferred by a breach of contract.

[Zamzara]

THe only people allowed to issue a PCN without placing it on the vehicle are Police officers and Police Traffic Wardens. A private parking co cannot issue if the vehicle has left and no ticket issued during the time it was alleged to have contravened parking restrictions.

Personally I would wait for them to take you to court, it will be a very long wait, like a whole lifetime ;-)

 

I disagree. Not that I'm saying the demand is valid, but the issue of whether a ticket was physically placed is irrelevant.

 

In fact a private company cannot issue a PCN at all, since PCN has a specified meaning under the 1991 RTA. All they can do is issue an invoice for services supposedly provided.

[Filthy Monkey]

Actually, you're both right...

 

What Falcon185 said is actually correct, in that council appointed parking attendants must issue a ticket by either handing it to the driver or placing it on the vehicle's windscreen. However, actual traffic wardens or police do not have to do so. They can still submit the ticket for processing even if the driver leaves the scene before the ticket is actually issued.

 

Private companies, on the other hand, as Zamzara says, cannot issue official PCNs. What they are issuing are invoices designed to resemble official PCNs in the hope of scaring drivers into paying them. Whether they hand it to the driver or send it in the post is irrelevant as they really are just a lot of nonsense!

[falcon185]

Thank you Filthy,

 

I forgot to mention in my post that a private Co cannot issue PCN. In fact any notice left on a vehicle by a Private company porporting to be an official document which could lead the owner/driver into believing criminal proceedings may follow is against the OFT guidlines?

[patdavies]

Police and Traffic Wardens cannot issue a PCN either.

 

They issue an FPN - which is a criminal matter.

[Filthy Monkey]

...or ECNs, again a criminal matter. These fines, if left unpaid, could result in the local courts imposing fines, or even the threat of imprisonment. PCNs, on the other hand, are considered a civil debt and so, rather than criminal prosecution, can be enforced by means of a court order and referral to a bailiff if necessary. However, unlike the 'invoices' handed out by private parking companies, PCNs are backed up by legislation set down in the Road Traffic Act 1991.

[Guest xipetotec46]

Hi RJB Do what Falcon185 advises and ignore everything they send through, do not admit to being the driver.

Your legal liability to them is the cost of the parking so if it is £1 for 2 hours and you overstayed by an hour you owe them a proportion of the charge, in this scenario it would be 50p or if the minimum charge is £1 then you owe them £1

[Filthy Monkey]

The trouble with this is that if you ignore all correspondence from them you could end up with a judgment against you by default if it goes to court and you don't respond. Best to nip this in the bud as soon as you can by shwing them that you know what you're talking about and can't be pushed around...

[Guest xipetotec46]

Best to nip this in the bud as soon as you can by showing them that you know what you're talking about and can't be pushed around

If you end up exchanging letters and you

don't know what you are talking about you

will come unstuck they will not take you to

court because they know they will lose.

[Filthy Monkey]

they will not take you to

court because they know they will lose.

 

That's a very risky stance to take. These companies DO take people to court as most 'offenders' do not turn up to defend themselves. The big advantage of communicating by letter is that you don't have to think on the spot, unlike a court appearance. There are many members on here who will help draft letters and decipher replies designed to confuse people with little knowledge of the law. It's much easier to let the company up front that you will not be pushed around and do not accept their bullying tactics.

[Guest xipetotec46]

On pepipoo they advise not to comunicate in any way with private parking companies and it works. PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice parking tickets.

Iits a much bigger forum than this so their help and advices are much more comprehensive, because it is dedicated to just motoring offences.