Entitled vs Abbey (claiming £3500+)

[Entitled]

Hi there.

With this, my second post, I shall outline my story so far;

 

Back in October I sent a letter to Lloyds asking for £210 pounds worth of charges to be refunded and, miracle of miracles, they did so. Just one letter... and a lengthy wait... but, hey presto, Success!

 

At that time I also made a request for 6 years-worth of statements from Abbey. I got my 12 months of repeat statements fairly quickly then paid £10 for the rest. There was a delay (no surprise there), and a couple of phone calls later I recieved the fat envelope of microfiche screen-prints. I sent my letter seeking refund of charges mid-November 2006. I wrote again in mid-December and recieved a letter mid-January with the Gesture of Goodwill (GOGW) of £400. I wrote a reply and posted it straight away, then called up later the same day when I discovered they had already credited that amount to my account (in £35 debits). I stated that I did not consider it to be sufficient and that I would continue to pursue the claim. I did not use a standard letter for that response, and I made a personal plea for a quick resolution (attempting to appeal to their "human" side), to avoid any unnecessary and wasteful drain on company, personal and legal resources.

 

A recent phone call and (promised) letter confirmed that it was a "final" offer. I restated my intention to go through the small claims court process to recover the remaining amount plus interest.

 

The letters I have recieved match those given on other threads and it is encouraging to see that I am not alone.

 

My claim is made up of charges for "Unauthorised Overdraft fee" (amounts that vary between £16.50 - £15 - £20 over the 6 years), "Cleared Transaction" (£20 - £30), and "Unpaid Direct Debit" (£30 - £32 - £35). With the earliest charge being from 30/08/00, and the latest from May 2006 (Yay, I've been in the black for nearly a year, three cheers for me). I don't expect that my "good behaviour" will have much impact on my claim, and in some ways it makes me sad to think that it just means that I have less to claim back than others... but I'll live with that

 

 

So I'm ready to take my claim to Court, and this is further than I needed to go before, so I'm re-reading all the info and looking over several websites to confirm the details. There is now so much to read that I'm getting word-blind. So I have some questions, if you'd be so kind;

 

 

Has there been any noticeable difference observed in Abbey's response to claims made with an N1 form, as opposed to one made via Money Claims Online?

 

What address have you used on N1 or MCO for the Abbey? (I was told by an Abbey Complaints person by phone today that "Abbey Legal Dept, 2 Triton House, Regent Place, London NW1 3AN" would be the one)

 

I haven't looked at the calculation of interest yet, although I have mentioned it in my letters. I do not have Excel or any other Spreadsheet software on my Laptop (unless there was something in Microsoft Works suite that I never noticed before), is there a calculator that does not require such Software? I could probably work it out with a pencil if really necessary (no bad jokes about constipated mathematicians please).

 

Is Money Claims Online really available anywhere in the country? I was reading an online court doc yesterday that suggested it was only available in certain areas...

 

 

 

Now then, if this were EastEnders, someone would either be arranging a drink at "The Vic" or offering to put the kettle on... so I'll just ask one more question: "How many sugars?.. Let's get this sorted!":)

[Michael Browne]

is there a calculator that does not require such Software?

Yes there's one on here, but it's pants. Better is this one :

Bank charges: Reclaim them, they're unlawful, so you can get six years money back | MoneySavingExpert: Consumer Revenge, Credit Cards, Shopping, Bank Charges, Cheap Flights and more

 

Enter each charge separately and then add charge. Print off results.

You'll have to enter 'Type of charge' by hand.

 

Better still is to download OpenOffice for free and then use the s/s on this site:

Spreadsheet with interest

6. Interest calculation spreadsheets

Spreadsheet : OpenOffice - Alternative to Excel

Free alternative to Excel

[Entitled]

Thanks Michael, I'll go for the OpenOffice... but I'll wait until tonight for the download (slow dial-up is free after 6pm - this looks to be pretty big).

[Entitled]

Having read more (a lot more), I realised that I would be needing a printer to produce all these copies of documents so I've ended up going out and buying some new kit (I knew that the GOGW would come in handy). This has introduced a delay in my plans but I've still been moving forward.

 

Letter before Action sent on 3/3/07. - I was going to go ahead and do MCOL but I saw something on the FAQ that made me think I'd better send a proper schedule of charges first. SO now I've fallen in line with the CAG recommended process and I'm giving them 14 days to respond (they won't).

 

My MCOL is now being loaded into torpedo tube #1, ready for launch.

[Michael Browne]

This may help:

Getting MCOL Right

[Entitled]

Thank you Michael, that is EXACTLY what I needed to read next.

 

Thanks also for the earlier spreadsheet suggestions. I ended up using the spreadsheet part of Microsoft Works which came on my new PC. All very straightforward and I was pleased to see that I could remember how to use a spreadsheet after not needing to for about 6 years.

 

I did also find this thread quite interesting in the Lloyds TSB forum. It has helped me to predict the likely responses to my MCOL, and serves as a useful reminder as to why it is so important to get it right first time. (it is the one about how they defend the claim by saying it is "embarassing").

[Entitled]

Big thank you to Michael for the guide to getting MCOL right, as linked to in his post above. I used it to fill out my MCOL a couple of days ago and it has all gone so smoothly thanks to that little extra explanation.

 

I notice only one thing, and that is the "lookup" on the MCOL site shows a slightly different address for the Abbey when you put in their postcode. It is very obviously the same place, but the slight differences in detail could conceivably make a difference to delivery, I suppose. I imagine that the lookup is based on some kind of reference obtained from the Post Office, is it? Either way, the address given in one of the Sticky threads on this forum is the most detailed and retains all the key elements, so I planned to use that one, but ended up selecting the one provided by the lookup. It is a couple of lines shorter than the other one.

 

So now the MCOL request has gone in, and I see from the online progress that it is in status "Issued 22/3/07".

 

If I understand the game correctly; I now wait 5 days until considering it "served", then allow 14 days for a response. I prime myself to contact the court on the 15th day to ask the Judge to rule in my favour (but then I will hear that Abbey have acknowledged the claim at the last moment). So having responded that they intend to "defend", the Abbey will have a further 14 days to delay and appear to do nothing, to be followed by another last minute flurry of activity resulting in a stressed out customer/claimant being intimidated into considering a small fraction of the full claim in order to avoid the big scary court room. I get to test my mettle, learn how to prepare a court bundle, find out what the inside of my local court building looks like (without having to commit a crime or do jury service), and become another disillusioned customer of a financial institution who will now go around telling the whole world about the ****** profiteering bully-boys that we entrust our hard-earned wedge to so blindly.... but I still get my money and I go and tell everyone I know to do the same.

 

Game on!

[raytraci]

If I understand the game correctly; I now wait 5 days until considering it "served", then allow 14 days for a response. I prime myself to contact the court on the 15th day to ask the Judge to rule in my favour (but then I will hear that Abbey have acknowledged the claim at the last moment). So having responded that they intend to "defend", the Abbey will have a further 14 days to delay and appear to do nothing, to be followed by another last minute flurry of activity resulting in a stressed out customer/claimant being intimidated into considering a small fraction of the full claim in order to avoid the big scary court room. I get to test my mettle, learn how to prepare a court bundle, find out what the inside of my local court building looks like (without having to commit a crime or do jury service), and become another disillusioned customer of a financial institution who will now go around telling the whole world about the ****** profiteering bully-boys that we entrust our hard-earned wedge to so blindly.... but I still get my money and I go and tell everyone I know to do the same.

 

Game on!

 

 

i like yr style!!! go for it!!!

Traci

[Entitled]

There was one more lesson learned as part of my MCOL preparation. Probably one that has been learned by many before me, but not one I had anticipated;

 

I used the spreadsheet from this site (I think it was this one), to provide the schedule of charges and 8% interest. I have sent one to the Court Manager in Nottingham and will alter be sending one to the Abbey Legal Dept. I had a mild panic when I noticed that the totals on my two printouts did not match each other, even though they had been printed on the same day.

 

The spreadsheet is set up to calculate the interest at a rate of 0.00022% per day and shows the totals as figures to two decimal places. The potential confusion comes from the fact that the calculations are made using more decimal places, which are then rounded up for display. The number of days by which to multiply is also actually not a whole number, but one that includes fractions, so it changes during the day. I guess this has been done in order to follow the same method that would be used by the Banks themselves.

 

Eg. You could find a sum that shows on the printout as;

1.20

1.20

1.20

____

3.61

 

where the sums used are actually rounded up for display, but are processed in their entirety;

 

1.2034333

1.2034333

1.2034333

_________

3.6102999

 

 

It took me a while to get my head around it, and the lesson is to print out the two copies at the same time, and use the totals in the MCOL. I also include the current date on the top of each print to avoid further confusion.

[Entitled]

I have received notification from the Court (still MCOL at this stage) that Abbey have responded and intend to defend. Not a surprise, but pleased that they seem to be ahead of my anticipated schedule.

 

I have also received what I assume is a standard letter from Abbey Legal team asking for a schedule of charges (including explanation of the maths). I had sent a copy to the MCOL court to be affixed to the claim, but perhaps they did not get that. It is not a problem, they shall be further reminded that interest at 8% is adding some 80p per day.

 

So the Court doc (N10 Notice that Acknowledgment of Service has been filed) states;

The defendant now has 28 days from the date of service of the claim form to file a defence.

As the acknowledgment is dated on the fifth day from Issue, I take it that this will be the date it has been considered "Served". Therefore, it will be 28 days from March 27th (umm, err, doing the maths...), so I should expect a Defence to be filed by end of business on Tuesday 24th April.

 

At which point will the case be transferred to my local court?

Will I be contacted about the AQ? Some courts seem to be waiving this bit, I see in some recent posts. Who decides, is it the local court?

 

I have now read this thread, which answers those last few questions.

[Entitled]

I got the Abbey Defence yesterday. I'm pleased that they are processing a little faster than I expected.

 

Has anyone got a copy of an example defence listed, so I can make sure that there is nothing unusual or different about mine. It all looks OK on first glance, but I'd like to keep my senses sharp...

[charleyfarley]

Have a look at post # 40 here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/abbey-bank/70029-mariejader-abbey.html

[Entitled]

Thanks CharleyFarley, that Abbey "defence" was an exact copy of mine... and a great thread for me to read. Nicely detailed and with good follow-up and references. It makes a good one to save and look at again for reminders.

[Entitled]

And today the Nottingham MCOL court mob (Judge Murdoch) sent me the document that states the case is to be transferred to my local court. It includes the line about waiving the AQ (subject to the whim of the local court), as per the recent change in method by the courts.

 

No indication yet of when the Court Date will be...

 

 

So it is time to think about my Court Bundle. I have some questions;

 

Q: What kind of folders should I buy to keep the 3 bundles of documents? In other words, just how much paperwork will there be? What is an appropriate type of folder for the amount of docs?

 

Q: Is anyone else going through Harrogate District Court? Any idea on how far ahead the court date is likely to be?

 

Q: I thought I was clear, but I need to confirm... I asked for my 6 years of statements back in September last year. Can I claim 6 years back from Sept '06, or do the Abbey have a point (as they mentionmed in their defence), that I can only go back 6 years from the date of the MCOL being served?

 

 

 

 

An observation:

The Abbey have responded to my recent series of communication (since filing MCOL) in a timely and competent manner. Is this an indication that they have now taken on more staff in the legal section and beefed up the resources available? Could this indicate a more consistent and predictable approach in dealing with our cases? I see that the name on their Defence is "Micha-Rose Emmett" who is a Paralegal, who signed the defence on 12th April.

[Entitled]

If anyone is able to answer these questions, I'd be most grateful;

Q: What kind of folders should I buy to keep the 3 bundles of documents? In other words, just how much paperwork will there be? What is an appropriate type of folder for the amount of docs?

Q: Is anyone else going through Harrogate District Court? Any idea on how far ahead the court date is likely to be?

Q: I thought I was clear, but I need to confirm... I asked for my 6 years of statements back in September last year. Can I claim 6 years back from Sept '06, or do the Abbey have a point (as they mentionmed in their defence), that I can only go back 6 years from the date of the MCOL being served?

[Entitled]

Received a letter from Harrogate County Court (my local, only 1/2 a mile away).

 

Notice of Transfer of Proceedings

 

To all parties

 

As a result of an order made on 23rd April 2007, this claim has been transferred to the Leeds County Court.

 

Then the second page says;

General Form of Judgment or Order

Before DISTRICT JUDGE WOOD sitting at Harrogate County Court.... {address follows}

Upon reading the papers on the court file

IT IS ORDERED THAT

The papers be transferred to Leeds Combined Court Centre....{address follows}

dated 23rd April 2007

 

 

Letter dated 02 May 2007, received Thursday 3rd May.

 

 

 

Reason?

Still no date mentioned for a hearing. I had no input on the Order, nor knowledge that it was to heard, decided, etc.. and I certainly don't fancy a 45 minute drive to Leeds and a struggle to find a parking space, etc. I shall ring the court on Monday to ask if there is any known reason for the change. Perhaps the judge is going on his hols and fancies dumping all his less interesting cases onto the guys in Leeds... who knows!

[Entitled]

Yes, the transfer to Leeds County Court was followed by a transfer to the Leeds District Registry, Mercantile Division. (they also change the Case No. to a new one). Apparently there are going to be "many" similar cases scheduled to be handled on the same day. (Note the dates of these last entries... Yes, it really does take that long , and the interest is piling on day by day)

 

I now get a date (for the first time), upon which I am expected to attend. This is for an initial directions hearing (Case Management Conference) under Judge Kaye at Leeds County Court. I have a Case Management Information Sheet to complete, which must be returned no later than seven days before the hearing. Hhmmmm, looks a bit scary at the moment, but as with all the steps so far, I feel confident that it will all seem quite straightforward once I have read it through a few more times. The assistance of the kind folks on this site will no doubt help me to avoid any costly mistakes, and I shall be seeking advice before I complete the sheet.

 

I'm waiting for a call back from the court at the moment, as I had some contradictory details in my letter, with regards to times and dates. It seems that my Case Management Conference is set for Wednesday August 29th.

 

 

 

I notice that there was one of these "en masse" Case Management Conferences set for Yesterday (28th June). I wonder what became of all the cases....? I shall ask the court (if they ever ring), perhaps they'll be able to tell me...

[Michael Browne]

CMIS template here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/14266-sparksgem-3.html

 

Leeds Mercantile 28th June here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mercantile-court-cases-stays/91947-leeds-mercantile-court-hearing-10.html

[Entitled]

Thank you Michael. I have just finished reading the thread "Leeds Mercantile Court Hearing 28th June" and it is a corker. In fact I have now taken the liberty of starting the next one...

[Entitled]

I attended the Leeds Mercantile Court yesterday for a Case Management Conference. Banks applied for Stays on each case and these were granted. Stays will last until the initial outcome of the OFT test case in January 2008. Nothing more to see here, move along, show's over...

 

 

 

Or you can see this thread if you want to know what happened in detail.

[Entitled]

Over the Christmas/New Year holiday I received an "Unless Order" notification from Abbey/Santander. This is as described on the thread here. I have read through the letter from Abbey/Santander and if I have understood it correctly there is an opportunity to proceed - if I have a good reason to - or a chance to melt away into the shadows and they won't chase me for costs when the Judge dismisses the claim.

 

Do I have a good reason to proceed? Do I have a chance of finding an argument that won't come under the ruling made at the High Court? Last year BankFodder had a thread that was asking for people to include their case details, but I didn't hear of anything that came from that. Have I missed anything exciting in the months since I checked in here?