Newbody Vs Abbey

[newbody]

Thanxs for a site full of information read through loads of bits but re-read the early stages as just starting my claim with abbey

 

Just wrote and got my SAR letter done ready for posting.

 

be intresting to see what they send back to me as my account has been with them for 14 years so will want all the information they hold.

 

The amount they owe me from charges in the last 6 years i know will exceed the £5000 mark is it possible to file for charges to be reimbused as seperate cases E.g claim for period Apr 04 - Apr 07 as one case/claim and Apr 01 - Apr 04 as claim 2 and if successful on these then goto claim for the time previous to the last 6 years as another claim

[newbody]

So just to make sure i got it right your saying claim for apr 01 -apr 04 first thanxs for the fast reply

[newbody]

Ok update time havent phoned abbey or anything else yet recieved in the post this morning this

 

 

 

Abbey [J1]

 

 

Abbey PO Box 1109 Bradford BD1 5ZJ

 

 

If you have any questions

 

please call: 08457654321

 

fax: 01274368639

 

25 January 2007

 

Our ref: XXXXXXXXX/XXXX Account Number: XXXXXXXXXXX

 

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated 13 January 2007, which we received on 16 January 2007, requesting information on your bank account. I also acknowledge receipt of your £10 fee.

 

I confirm that arrangements have been made for the information you have requested to be sent to you. The transactional information remaining on our systems, normally covering the last fourteen months, will be sent out in the form of individual duplicate statements. You should receive these within five to seven working days of the date of this letter.

 

Any previous transactions have been archived onto microfiche and it is not possible to provide you with a computer print out of this information. However, we have made arrangements to send you a list of archived transactions between 2000 and 2005, under separate cover.

 

You have also asked for details of any 'manual interventions' that may have been made on your account and I am sorry that we are unable to help with this request.

 

I can explain that we consider 'manual intervention' to mean an action that is not automatic or computer-driven. Not all manual interventions are recorded, for example if a member of staff looks at a paper document relating to your account, a record is not always required. Similarly some interventions may relate to work carried out by a department rather than individuals where no central record of activity is kept because this is not the kind of information we need, or more importantly, that a customer would usually request.

 

Abbey National Credit and Payment Services Ltd is an Appointed Representative of Abbey National plc which is authorised by the Financial Services Authority.

 

Abbey National plc. Registered Office; Abbey National House, 2 Triton Square, Regent's Place, London NWI 3AN, United Kingdom. Registered Number 2294747. Registered in England. www,abbey,comTelephone0870 607 6000:BT calls cost max Sp min 5.Sp per minute. Other companies and mobile costs may vary. Calls may be recorded or monitored. Authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. FSA registration number 106054. Abbey and the flame logo are registered trademarks.

 

Abbey National plc advises on Phoenix Life Assurance Limited's life assurance and pension products, advises on its own mortgage and collective investment scheme products, and acts as an insurance intermediary for general insurance. MISe 0337 JUL 06 F

 

XXXXXX

 

 

 

 

Now the way i read this is they are sending me all my account information for the last 6 years without arguing the microfiche Stance on it

 

My argument now would be that my account dates back to 1994 with Abbey so i want all the information to the account though at the minute i am only going to be claiming for the last 6 years in seperate cases as i believe the figures involved are going to be ridiculous even for this short period of time (what can i say i am a banks dream for charges i just can never budget for a month :lol: )

 

Once i have delt with the time frame where there appears to be least resistance i will then be intrested in being a guniea pig for a case over the 6 year period to see what happens subject to the origional cases bringing good results

 

But to do this i need to have the information for the account previous to 2000 which they are supplying me

 

so i have drafted the following letter

 

 

Thank you for your letter dated the 25th January 2007 stating that you have received my Subject access request stating that you will be forwarding me copies of all statements for the last 14 months and for the archives of your microfiche information from 2000 to 2005 to be forwarded to me as well shortly after

However my original request was for a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation. Which the time period you are sending only covers part of this as my account with yourself dates back even further. I would like for all information to which you have on me and this account

Sent to me A.S.A.P.

Failing this information being available to me the I would like to know when, where & how they where destroyed.

If you should make the additional information available to me and I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and any other fees I incur trying to get hold of this information

 

Also though I acknowledge your receipt of your letter dated 25th January 2007 may I remind you that there is only 24 days remaining for ALL the information in regards this account and myself to reach me or I will be forced to lodge a complaint of non-compliance with the Information Commissioner in regards this matter.

 

What are your thoughts on this and what happening so far

[newbody]

Ok letter in the post

 

couple quick questions

 

after reading some of the other threads on here i notice defaults have been issued against people while they have bought action against the banks Would i be correct in assuming a default is when you exceed your credit limits i.e unauthorised over draft and any instance where you have had payments returned unpaid

How do you know if you have had a default against you

would a request under a normal SAR (used the standard letter from here) include any defaults lodged against you on it

Where would the best place be to find out what defaults i have against me and what cost would i look at to find out this information

As i am viewing it for now start stock piling the ammunition as a fight is on the way:D so it is nice to have as much information to hand so you are ready for their responses:) :)

[newbody]

OK UPDATE

 

First 14months statements arrived this lunchtime all in seperate envelopes all packed with same leaflet garbage

 

have gone through the statements for the period

 

now i stopped using my account in May 06 as it had spiralled out of control (i get account in order they apply charges Surprise surprise not enough to cover DD etc and the cycle continues) and abbey wernt prepared to help me get it under control by extending overdraft to cover their charges

 

so from dec-05 to the last charge hitting in may 06 which was for an incident in april of that year the charges are £1015 without any intrest

 

so now awaiting the microfiched copies to arrive

 

Question where due to charges it has put me outside my agreed overdraft as was the case from feb 06 until now they have added intrest while account overdrawn and have done this for a further 2 months after i ceased using this account (last default dd paid in may for action in april)amounting to £52.12 would i be entitled to add this to my claim as the account wasnt in use and the intrest was only accurred to the charges putting my account outside it's agreed limits

or would i be better ignore this sum in the final claim and just going for contractural intrest at what the rate would be at time in question with the option for judge to drop that to the 8% from sec69 if he feels that, that is more in keeping with the law

 

as they say still away to go yet but trying to keep on top of it all as i go

 

Will update some more when the microfiche documents arrive or the next corresponence is entered into with them

[newbody]

ok UPDATE microfiche information for last 6 years arrived today still missing first set of 6 years but that i will follow up later as they still have time to respond on that.

 

Now i am looking at caliming for compound contractural rate of interest so if i am correct i would add that to my prelim letter also i am looking at using their unauthorised intrest rate as well

 

so that said a copy of my prelim letter follows if someone in the know can check it out and make sure i havent made any mistakes it would be appreciated

ABBEY NATIONAL PLC

ABBEY NATIONAL HOUSE

2 TRITON SQUARE

REGENT'S PLACE

LONDON

NW1 3AN

 

6th February 2007

 

 

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXX Sort code: XX-XX-XX

 

My request

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my account over the last 6 years.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £4454.00 plus interest on this amount at your current unauthorised overdraft rate of 28.7% equalling £6726.35 which you would have charged me in interest for the sum which you have taken. Making a total outstanding of £ 11180.35.

 

I believe I am entitled to this interest rate due to the implied term in the bank contract based on the principle of "mutuality" or "reciprocity"

 

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter

 

additionally you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity’s caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account.

 

In addition to full payment of the sum mentioned above, I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

X XXXXXX

 

for my summary of schedule of charges i have used Vampiress's compounded contractural interest (simple) spreadsheet and changed the 8% to abbey's current unauthorised rate of 28.7%

 

Thank you in advance for any help on this

[newbody]

link for abbey intrest rates

 

Abbey - Abbey current account - Rates

[newbody]

Shameless bump:p

[newbody]

Sorry think i miss quoted it above

Throughout claim with compounded contractual interest is what the sheet was headed

 

copy of the page from top i used template 2

 

ENGLAND AND WALES

SIMPLE VERSION - choose to claim all or no bank interest

1 Throughout claim with contractual interest HERE

OR

2 Throughout claim with compounded contractual interest HERE (Vamp's recommended if you've no balance detail)

OR

[newbody]

ok update just recieved standard letter from abbey in response to prelim letter

Abbey

Banking Specialist Team

PO Box 5885

Milton Keynes

MK101FA

Tel: 0845 600 6014

Fax: 0845 600 1378

Typetalk: 18001 08456006014

09 February 2007

Our Ref: xxxxxxxxx

Dear XXXXXXXXX

Account No XXXXXXXX

Thank you for contacting us and I am sorry that you have been so unhappy that you

have felt you must complain.

One of my team will be responsible for investigating your complaint and I have

enclosed our Complaints leaflet, which explains our procedure for doing this. High

quality customer service is of great importance to us at Abbey and we will do

everything we can to resolve your complaint in a timely and satisfactory manner.

I know it is important to you that we resolve your complaint quickly, but we want to

complete a thorough investigation and sometimes this can take time. If we have not

contacted you before then, we will write to you in four weeks to let you know what is

happening.

If you have employed someone to handle your complaint on your behalf, please note:

employing a third party complaint-handling firm, or a solicitor, or financial adviser

does not affect how we review your complaint. Please be aware that:

• Abbey does not charge you to investigate your complaint

• Abbey will not be liable for any costs incurred if you do decide to employ a

third party to handle your complaint during this review

• Abbey, in general, will only make payment directly to the account holder(s) if

your complaint is upheld and redress is due

Although I do not know what the outcome will be, I do hope that we will be able to

find a solution that you are happy with.

Yours sincerely

Andrew Nanson

Business Manager

Ene. Complaints Leaflet

 

they still have 7 days under prelim letter so 7 days till i fiile the LBA

[newbody]

Ok update time heard nothing more scince the above standard letter from abbey so now to send them the standard letter beforee action from here then await the next 14 days

 

 

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXX Sort code: XXXXX

 

 

I am very disappointed that you have failed to respond satisfactorily to my letter of the 6th February 2007.

I now understand that the regime of 'fees' which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations thus meaning you have being doing me wrong by these acts. If such is not the case then a breakdown of what your costs in administering these charges to my account would be appreciated stating that they are inline with other finasncial institutions does not represent them being a true cost as from recent media events other financial establishments are also being bought to task over their current charging regime

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

I calculate that you have taken £xxxx.00 from my account so what I require to resolve this matter is the £xxxx.00 plus interest on this amount at your current unauthorised overdraft rate of 28.7% equalling £xxxx.06 (which you would have charged me in interest for the sum which you have taken had I taken it under the same circumstances). Making a total outstanding of £xxxxx.06 as of today’s date increasing daily due to the interest until this matter is resolved.

I am enclosing a copy of the schedule of the charges which I am claiming. I have already sent you a copy of this in my original letter of the 6th February 2007.

Additionally you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity’s caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account.

In addition to full payment of the sum mentioned above I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

I require repayment in full of this money and removal of the default notice. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus a claim under ss.7 and 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 plus my costs and without further notice.

 

Furthermore, I shall submit a Consumer Credit Act 1974 complaint to the OFT upon the basis that you have failed to comply with the OFT's direction of 5 April 2006 and are therefore not a 'fit and proper person' to hold a consumer credit licence under the 1974 Act. If you do not understand what this means then seek advice from your legal department.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Newbody

[newbody]

Yeap it my worst bit sitting waiting time table lba was done just after prelim ready for today

will start in next couple days on n1 ready to file in 14 days and continue to sit on here reading the different arguments/thoughts on ways to go for Claim + contractural/compound

[newbody]

edited above post with amendments http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-575737.html

[newbody]

Ok started work on N1 today got Abbey have until 6th March until i can file it but figured start work on it now and try to get some feedback on it before filing so ready to go

 

My case or what i am claiming for

 

Bank charges (bounced dd/cheque/so unauthorised overdraft rate No bank charged interest on these charges )

I am then claiming for compound contractural interest at Abbey's unauthorised rate of 28.7% on the charges under Mutuality and Reciporty / Fairness and balance / quasi contract (still researching the best arguments to use and trying to back it up and learning from thoose that preceed me on these steps

here goes here is what i have in my N1 so far

 

Claimant

XXXXXXXX

XXXXXX

Essex

XXXXXXXX

Defendant

ABBEY NATIONAL PLC

ABBEY NATIONAL HOUSE

2 TRITON SQUARE

REGENT'S PLACE

LONDON

NW1 3AN

 

Brief details of claim

Money claim for return of penalty charges applied to the Claimants bank account by the Defendant

Value

Penalty charges in the sum of £4,454.00 and Interest to be determined as the Court deems just, as per section 10 of the attached Particulars of Claim, with the maximum to not exceed £6,975.13. A maximum total of £11,429.13

Plus any applicable Court fees.

Plus interest from date of issue to date of judgement or earlier payment at a maximum rate of £8.99 per day or at such rate and for such periods as the Court deems just, according to section 9 of the attached Particulars of Claim.

Amount claimed £11,429.13

Does, or will, your claim include any issues under the Human Rights Act 1998? No

Particulars of Claim (attached)(to follow)

1. The Claimant has a Current Account, number XXXXXXX (“the Account”), operating from the Defendant’s XXXXX branch (sort code XXXXX)

2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking Terms and Conditions (“the contract”)

3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract in regards to “Card Misuse”, “Unpaid Items”, “Referral Charge”, etc.. on the part of the Claimant and also charged overdraft interest on the charges once applied.

4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

5. A schedule of the charges and overdraft interest applied is attached to these particulars of claim (Appendix 1), that itemise the charges and interest charged thereon.

6. The claimant will rely on the Competition Commission’s report entitled “Northern Irish Personal Banking,” published on 20th October, 2006, as evidence that the Defendant is aware that the income derived from its default charges is calculated to generate material profits and is not merely a means of recouping losses incurred in relation to account defaults

7. The claimant will further rely on the Office of Fair Trading’s (“the OFT”) statement of 5th April 2006 concerning default charges in credit card contracts, as the OFT’s recommendations regarding standard default terms in credit card contracts have wider implications, as regards bank current account agreements.

 

8. The Claimant thus contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account:

i) are punitive in nature;

ii) are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;

iii) exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract

on the part of the Claimant;

iv) are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly

enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

c) In the alternative to a) & b) above, if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

9. Contractual Interest

a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed.

b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates.

c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is deemed as unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s current unauthorised borrowing rate advertised by the Defendant’s website, being 28.7% EAR. The Claimant understands that the unauthorised borrowing rate at the time of opening the account was actually over 33%, but believes that using the current rate gives a fair result.

d) In the alternative to c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s lowest current authorised borrowing rate for a Royalties account, advertised by the Defendant’s website, being 16.9% EAR .

e) In the alternative to c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year

f) Schedules of interest calculated and are attached to these Particulars of Claim as follows:

Appendix 2 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 28.7%

Appendix 3 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 16.9%

Appendix 4 – Simple interest as per s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate

of 8.00%

Appendix 5 – Print of the Defendant’s website showing the current borrowing rates

(relevant paragraphs marked with an asterisk on pp2&3)

10. Accordingly, the claimant claims:

a) The return of the amounts debited between 23-Dec-2001 and 122-May-2006 in respect of charges in the sum of £4,454.00

b) Any applicable Court fees

c) Compound interest at the contractual rate of 28.7% EAR from the date of each transaction to 6th March 2007 of £6,975.13, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £8.99

d) In the alternative to c), compound interest at the contractual rate of 16.9% EAR from the date of each transaction to 6th March 2007 of £3,103.51, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £3.46

e) In the alternative to c) and d), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to 6th March 2007, of £1,065.87 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £1.21

Thanxs to Mccuth for this as pinched most of it from his thread

Constructive Comments and revisions are welcomed

 

 

[newbody]

fiduciary: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

 

Legal Encyclopedia

Library > Legal > Legal Encyclopedia

This entry contains information applicable to United States law only.

Fiduciary

An individual in whom another has placed the utmost trust and confidence to manage and protect property or money. The relationship wherein one person has an obligation to act for another's benefit.

 

A fiduciary relationship encompasses the idea of faith and confidence and is generally established only when the confidence given by one person is actually accepted by the other person. Mere respect for another individual's judgment or general trust in his or her character is ordinarily insufficient for the creation of a fiduciary relationship. The duties of a fiduciary include loyalty and reasonable care of the assets within custody. All of the fiduciary's actions are performed for the advantage of the beneficiary.

Courts have neither defined the particular circumstances of fiduciary relationships nor set any limitations on circumstances from which such an alliance may arise. Certain relationships are, however, universally regarded as fiduciary. The term embraces legal relationships such as those between attorney and client, broker and principal, principal and agent, trustee and beneficiary, and executors or administrators and the heirs of a decedent's estate.

A fiduciary relationship extends to every possible case in which one side places confidence in the other and such confidence is accepted; this causes dependence by the one individual and influence by the other. Blood relation alone does not automatically bring about a fiduciary relationship. A fiduciary relationship does not necessarily arise between parents and children or brothers and sisters.

The courts stringently examine transactions between people involved in fiduciary relationships toward one another. Particular scrutiny is placed upon any transaction by which a dominant individual obtains any advantage or profit at the expense of the party under his or her influence. Such transaction, in which undue influence of the fiduciary can be established, is void.

 

Real Estate Terms

Library > Business > Real Estate Terms

Fiduciary One who acts, in a legal role, in the best interests of others.

Examples:

• A Broker is a fiduciary for the seller.

• A banker is a fiduciary for the bank's depositors.

• An attorney may be a fiduciary for the client.

• A Trustee is a fiduciary for the Beneficiaries.

 

 

For memeroy at minute cannot remember the thread we were discussing fiduiary duty on but from above site it gives us that banks are a fiduciary

 

 

Mutuality of Contract

Reciprocal understanding or agreement between parties that is a requirement in the creation of a legally enforceable Contract

 

Banking Terms

Library > Business > Banking Terms

Contract 1. General. An agreement backed by lawful consideration to carry out actions, exchange assets, or refrain from doing things. A legally valid contract is reached through mutual agreement by persons with the capacity to negotiate, in which each gives up something of value. It must be for a lawful purpose.

 

 

Law Dictionary

Library > Legal > Law Dictionary

Contract A promise, or set of promises, for breach of which the law gives a remedy, or the performance of which the law in some way recognizes as a duty. 1 Williston, Contracts §1 (4th ed. 1990). The essentials of a valid contract are "parties competent to contract, a proper subject-matter, consideration, mutuality of agreement, and mutuality of obligation," 286 N.W. 844, 846; "a transaction involving two or more individuals whereby each becomes obligated to the other, with reciprocal rights to demand performance of what is promised by each respectively." 282 P. 2d 1084, 1088. "The total legal obligation which results from the parties' agreement as affected by law." U.C.C. §1-201 (11).

 

Law Dictionary

Library > Legal > Law Dictionary

Reciprocity Generally, a relationship between persons, states, or countries whereby favors or privileges granted by one are returned by the other. Thus, if state A certifies engineers already certified by state B to work in state A, "reciprocity" exists when state B similarly certifies engineers previously certified by state A. Reciprocity does not involve a vested right that would exist without it. See 103 S.E. 2d 205, 208. See also comity.

 

Email addy for abbey is first.last@abbey.com

[newbody]

bump

[newbody]

ok update filed n1 at colchester on thursday after mad nicks advice revised it to the following

 

Claimant

XXXXXXXX

XXXXXX

Essex

XXXXXXXX

 

Defendant

ABBEY NATIONAL PLC

ABBEY NATIONAL HOUSE

2 TRITON SQUARE

REGENT'S PLACE

LONDON

NW1 3AN

 

Brief details of claim

 

Money claim for return of penalty charges applied to the Claimants bank account by the Defendant

 

Value

 

Penalty charges in the sum of £4,454.00 and Interest to be determined as the Court deems just, as per section 10 of the attached Particulars of Claim, with the maximum to not exceed £6,975.13. A maximum total of £11,429.13

Plus any applicable Court fees.

Plus interest from date of issue to date of judgement or earlier payment at a maximum rate of £8.99 per day or at such rate and for such periods as the Court deems just, according to section 9 of the attached Particulars of Claim.

 

 

Amount claimed £11,429.13

 

Does, or will, your claim include any issues under the Human Rights Act 1998? No

 

Particulars of Claim (attached)(to follow)

 

1. The Claimant has a Current Account, number XXXXXXX (“the Account”), operating from the Defendant’s XXXXX branch (sort code XXXXX)

2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking Terms and Conditions (“the contract”)

3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract in regards to “Card Misuse”, “Unpaid Items”, “Referral Charge”, etc.. on the part of the Claimant and also charged overdraft interest on the charges once applied.

4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

5. A schedule of the charges and overdraft interest applied is attached to these particulars of claim (Appendix 1), that itemise the charges and interest charged thereon.

6) It is impossible to envisage how the Defendant can incur costs of £30-40 for a default when the rejection of a direct debit, application of the default charge and sending out a computer generated letter are completely automated. The letter received notifying a charge is identical in every instance, and if multiple breaches occurred on the same day, a separate letter will be sent in each instance. The charge is the same regardless of whether the breach of overdraft is £1 or £1000

7) Therefore the Claimant contends that:

a) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy the charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) paragraph 8 and Schedule 2(1) sub paras (e)(i)(j)(q); the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 section 4 and the common law;

b) the charges are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of costs incurred by the Defendant in relation to the purported breaches; and far exceed the actual costs to the Defendant in each case. c) The view that such charges are a penalty is supported by common law (inter alia, Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage & Motor Co Ltd [1915] [AC79]; Alfred McAlpine Capital Projects Ltd v Tilebox Ltd [2005] EWHC 281 (TCC); Lordsvale Finance PLC v. Bank of Zambia [QB 752]; Murray v. Leisureplay [EWCA Civ 963]; Bridge v. Campbell Discount Co. Ltd [AC 600]; Commissioner of Public Works v Hills [AC 368]

d) in its replies, the Defendant has ignored the Claimant’s requests (Claimant’s letters dated 6th Feb 2007 and 20th Feb 2007 ) to disclose the costs which it incurred as a result of the breaches to which it applied the charges thereby to confirm that its charges are : proportionate to its admin expenses incurred due to the Claimant’s breach of contract; and a genuine pre-estimate of the damage suffered by the Defendant, and not a penalty.

e) the Claimant’s assertion that the Defendant’s default charges far exceed the actual costs to the Defendant in each case and therefore constitute a penalty is supported by :

i. Investigation (December 2004) by the Consumer Law Centre, Victoria, Australia which concluded that Australian Banks’ default charges ($25-50 ≈ £11-22) are at least 5 times greater than their costs of dishonouring cheques and at least 64 times for dishonouring direct debits, and constitute penalties as this is excessive and out of all proportion to their costs;

ii. Treasury Select Committee, 2nd report, 25 January 2005. Banks' evidence (not the Defendant although its charges are similar/competitive) was that their default charges included costs unrelated to an actual breach;

iii. Office of Fair Trading report (OFT842, April 2006) about credit card default charges which stated that default fees have been set at a significantly higher level than is fair for the purposes of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999). The OFT stated that its findings were likely to be relevant to bank account charges;

iv. Members of Parliament who expressed concern about the “exorbitant costs to customers of default charges applied to current and credit card accounts” in two House of Commons Early Day Motions (EDMs 2227/0506 and 500/0607);

v. Competition Commission inquiry into personal banking in Northern Ireland (provisional findings October 2006). The Commission noted that Banks’ default charges include unrelated costs and profit; i.e. the charges are significantly greater than Banks’ actual costs;

vi. Treasury Select Committee - Thirteenth Report, 7 November 2006, HC1717 which stated that “We are not convinced that penalty charges of up to £39 are reasonable and accurately reflect the costs incurred by the banks.”

vii. Investigation by commission of experts for BBC Money Programme (12 December 06) which concluded that the highest cost which banks could justify were £4.50 for dishonouring cheques, and £2.50 for dishonouring direct debits and dealing with unauthorised overdrafts, compared with typical default charges of £30.

 

8. The Claimant thus contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account:

i) are punitive in nature;

ii) Are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;

iii) Exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract On the part of the Claimant;

iv) Are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

c) In the alternative to a) & b) above, if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

 

9. Contractual Interest

a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed.

 

b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates.

 

c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is deemed as unauthorized borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s current unauthorized borrowing rate advertised by the Defendant’s web site, being 28.7% EAR. The Claimant understands that the unauthorized borrowing rate at the time of opening the account was actually over 33%, but believes that using the current rate gives a fair result.

 

d) In the alternative to c), should the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account not be deemed to be unauthorized borrowing by the Defendant, then, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, the Claimant has calculated compound interest at the Defendant’s lowest current authorised borrowing rate for the account, advertised by the Defendant’s web site, being 16.9% EAR.

 

e) In the alternative to c) and d), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year

 

f) Schedules of interest calculated and are attached to these Particulars of Claim as follows:

Appendix 2 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 28.7%

Appendix 3 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 16.9%

Appendix 4 – Simple interest as per s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate of 8.00%

Appendix 5 – Print of the Defendant’s web site showing the current borrowing rates

 

10. Accordingly, the claimant claims:

a) The return of the amounts debited between 23-Dec-2001 and 122-May-2006 in respect of charges in the sum of £4,454.00

 

b) Any applicable Court fees

 

c) Compound interest at the contractual rate of 28.7% EAR from the date of each transaction to 6th March 2007 of £6,975.13, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £8.99

 

d) In the alternative to c), compound interest at the contractual rate of 16.9% EAR from the date of each transaction to 6th March 2007 of £3,154.12, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £3.52

 

e) In the alternative to c) and d), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to 6th March 2007, of £1,065.87 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £1.21

 

f) All payments by the defendant are to be made by cheque to the claimant and not into the account in dispute. To which the claimant has no access due to the defendant to all intents and purposes closed the account by having passed it to an outside debit collection agency and having recalled all bank cards and cheque books in respect of this account giving the claimant no means of being able to check any monies passed on to them or being able to gain access to the monies in question and would also demonstrate on the defendants part even more cause to deprive the claimant of their monies for an even more extended period of time.

 

So now waiting for notice it served and abbey to file their defence

EDIT : Information from Mccuths post and Mad Nick thanxs and credit to whoever else contributed to it

[newbody]

Ok update recieved this in the morning post standard delay tatics letter of we are investigating but not resolved yet sorry to say but court papers served yesterday :lol:

 

 

Abbey

Complaints

Abbey

PO Box 51 29

Nlilton Keynes

MK9 2YN

Telephone: 0845 600 6014

Facsimile: 0845 600 1378

Typetalk: 18001 0845 600 6014

 

Email: customerservices@abbey.com

 

Date: 08 March 2007

 

Our Ref XXXXXXXXXXX

 

 

Dear Mr XX XXXXXX

As you know, we are currently investigating your complaint that you raised with Abbey four weeks ago. l am sorry for the delay you are experiencing and I would like to take this

opportunity to thank you for your continued patience,.

Our research is taking longer than expected because we want to make sure a full investigation is done. If we are unable to complete our investigation beforehand, we will write to you again in four weeks time to let you know how we are getting on.

I am sorry that it is taking longer than originally though: and would like to reassure you that your complaint is very important to us.

Yours

 

 

 

sincerely,

 

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

Harris

 

Head of Complaints

[newbody]

ok update Recieved a GOGW in the post today once i had settled down enough to scan it on to the pc I have entered it on here for all to see now the question is how many of you honestly think I should settle for this as a fair offer allowing for my missus has threatened to leave me if I do accept it (so it does have some appeal to accepting it )

13 March 2007

Our ref:XXXXXXXXX

Abbey Current Account XXXXXXXXXX

Dear XXXXXXXX

Thank you for your letter dated 6 February 2007, about the charges on your bank account. I have now carried out a full investigation on your behalf.

I'm sorry you are unhappy with the charges and I understand you would like these refunded. Although the charges were correct, as a gesture of goodwill, I am happy to refund £233. (bet they are I claiming for over £11,000) I have sent a cheque for this amount to our Debt Management Department, to help repay any remaining outstanding balance on your account.

I appreciate your feelings on this matter but we are satisfied that the charges do not contravene the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. We also comply with the Office of Fair Trading, in dealing fairly and openly with our customers.

When opening your account you were provided with information detailing the terms

and conditions. We have also sent you regular updates and Tariff of Charges, which

detail the amounts of our charges. I have enclosed a further copy for you.

You have requested a breakdown of how our charges are apportioned and I regret that I am unable to provide you with the specific information that you have requested.

I can inform you that your charges are based on the extra administrative work

incurred by Abbey when, for example, an account has insufficient funds to meet a

requested payment. Abbey believes that it is reasonable to make a charge on such

an occasion to pass on the costs incurred by the bank and that the charges applied

to the account are fair and transparent. Should you require details of the specific

charges applicable, these are stated in the terms and conditions of your account.

Any information registered with credit reference agencies is a true and factual reflection of the situation on your account. We are required by the Information Commissioner to register and share information on how customers run their accounts. Because of this, we are unable to remove or alter the information that is held. However, when the outstanding balance is paid in full, although the default will remain, it will then be Please be assured I have carried out a full investigation for you and I hope you feel I

have offered a considered and complete response to all of the issues you've raised. I

will keep your file open for the next. 8 weeks and if I don't hear from you within that

time, Iwill assume that everything is resolved and will close your file. If you remain

dissatisfied though, the leaflet you'll find with this letter explains your rights and how

to take your complaint further within Abbey. The address to contact is:

Complaints

Abbey

PO Box 5129

Milton Keynes MK9 2YN

If you remain unhappy with the response from the Complaints Department, you have an ultimate right to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

Stephen Hill Senior Customer Resolution Manager

Enc. Complaints Leaflet Tariff of Charges

[newbody]

15th March 2007

Response to Gesture of Goodwill.

 

Dear Stephen Hill

 

Thank you for your letter dated 13th March 2007. However as you should now be aware on the 8th March 2007 I filed with Colchester County court paperwork to start court proceedings against Abbey for the full amount I believe to be owing to me.

So I respectfully decline your Gesture of Goodwill and will assume by the return of this letter that you will not send the cheque to your debt Management Department or will place a stop on the said cheque. As you should be aware my account has been passed to an outside debt collection agency and I have no access to the account (bank cards etc to check the balance outstanding) So I will assume that on your receiving of this letter you will take the appropriate action to re-claim the £233 offer you have made (you have my permission in this instance to remove the aforementioned £233) as I will deem it as not paid and pursue this matter through the courts for the full claimed amount. To trial if need be unless a suitable agreement can be made prior to trial. Whilst I appreciate your assumption that this would be an acceptable sum to myself if indeed your charges are a true cost of what the administration costs are in regards a breach of the account, I am not of the same consensus and believe the charges to be nothing more than a Penalty and thus not legally sustainable as such, and request you do not make ay further unagreed payments without consulting with myself first.

Also in reference to your letter you say you are not able to provide me with specific information regarding the breakdown costs in regards these charges. Then with no offence meant surely then this matter should be passed on to someone who is able to pass to do this and save the prolonged drawn out action from continuing. Again I re-iterate if your charges are a true reflection of your costs and not a Penalty charges as I believe them to be then I will be happy to cease all action but failing the supply of this information then I will be forced to continue with the above said legal action.

 

In regards the default in formation you have filed in regards this account yes I agree that it is your duty to register and share information on how we run our accounts But due to the fact again that Charges in excess of what are true costs are what bought this breach into effect it is therefore my contention that it was not my handling of the account that caused for these defaults to be occurred but yours as my Bank taking money in excess of what it should have. Therefore again I request that you remove the said defaults from my record not merely mark as satisfied otherwise I will be continuing my legal action on with this matter as well.

So to recap

I require you stop any payment of this Gesture of goodwill or remove it from the said account

You provide me with a full breakdown as to the true cost of what each charge costs Abbey to administer in relation to the defaults

You remove the default history from my credit rating

And with any further offers of settlement you correspond with me before making the payment

 

 

I trust this clarifies my position.

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Newbody

 

 

 

Comments welcome

[newbody]

Dont worry you have taken the first step and that is by registering here

the next thing to do is start your own thread so it keeps all your information together and read others experiences as it will show you all the dirty and underhanded bully boy tatics the banks will try to apply to you to get you to stop claiming your charges also only claim for what you are comfortable with as you may need to present your arguments to a judge

 

the easiest claim is for charges and interest they debited on the charges and statutory interest sec 69 8% when you file at court

 

i am of the mind they made my life hell so i will give them some back ad i am trying for the unproven charges and compounded unauthorised interest on top of their charges as well but this is unproven yet as to the best way to go and you will need to do alot of research on it yourself as well

 

but otherwise hi and welcome to the campagian

[newbody]

well you cant claim until monday now at the earliest unless you are using mcol you could get your n1 filled in in preperation and amend the amounts if required monday before printing it off or sending it using mcol

 

as for how they arrive at figures god knows but as the letter with my GOGW didnt actually say what it was for it is merely an inference that it is in regards the charges

 

I'm sorry you are unhappy with the charges and I understand you would like these refunded. Although the charges were correct, as a gesture of goodwill, I am happy to refund £233. I have sent a cheque for this amount to our Debt Management Department, to help repay any remaining outstanding balance on your account.

I was tempted to send a letter saying thank you for gesture of goodwill i am assuming this is to try and restore my faith in yourselves as a bank and as such i am happy to accept it but i will still be pursuing you for the amount you have levied against me in the region of 11K

:D :D

[newbody]

Update paper now deemed served on Abbey 14 days to now to file intent

 

Newbody hopes they are so swamped they will forget on his

Doubt it but can but hope

[newbody]

you can make the claim in one go for all 3 accounts if you wish but be warned if the total of claim exceeds £5000 then it could put you on fast track where their is a risk of costs being awarded but having said that you can still request small cliams court if the value of claim does put you outside the £5k amount then you have valid reason for 3 claims one for each of the accounts also depending what benifits if any you are on you maybe exempt from fees (income based jobseekers) or entitled to a reduced fee (working tax child tax credit) worth checking it out

[newbody]

Update abbey Served notice to defend on 29th MArch so now awaiting their defence papers they have until 17th april to serve them