Wolfcub Vs Lloyds - **IT IS SOOOO WON!!!**

[wolfcub]

So pleased I found this site. I have just sent by recorded delivery a letter to Lloyds Customer Care for £2500 of charges.

 

Lloyds were efficient in my request for all statements over 6 yrs on two seperate accounts - took just 4 working days to reach me. I hope that their paper is taken from sustainable forests - otherwise some de-forestation has occured.

 

I fully intend to take this all the way. Lloyds took about half the amount over a six month period when my business was in trouble. I ended up in court on a reposession charge for a loan secured on the house that I could not pay - the amount of arrears was under £1000 - less than Lloyds "took" from me.

 

I agree with another members comments - county courts are not as scary as creditors. Having been on the other side, I frankly would welcome the opportunity to state my case.

[wolfcub]

Got the standard letter back from Lloyds this morning - same as everyone else. I'll send a letter before action and we'll go from there.

[wolfcub]

Received a second letter of refusal from Lloyds today. They are very efficient at getting responses out through. Just 2 days. Since their letter states "This is the bank's final response, I'll file a claim later on for £2500 plus 8% interest.

 

Found I had a spring in my step this morning - can't wait to get some justice.

 

 

 

 

 

MOVED can you please keep to the one thread with this please

[wolfcub]

By all accounts, this was a rather effortless process! Sent Lloyds a letter - got a standard GO AWAY and NO letter back. Sent a letter before action, Got a shorter NO letter back. Applied to the courts 5/4/06, and Lloyds didn't even respond (they had 14 days to file an Admission or defence).

 

Given they had been so efficient in sending the GO AWAY letters and all backdated statements, this was a surprise and a disappointment. I was looking forward to meeting them in court.

 

I filed a Judgement by Default this morning for £2600 plus costs. Lets hope they pay up or I shall relish sending in the bailiffs.

 

Hoorah. Take note all you newbies - it's not always that hard to get justice!!!

[wolfcub]

Hi Lusky,

 

125 Colmore Row, Birmingham B3 3SF - Head Office I think. I have been corrisponding with a Mandy Horton, Assistant Manager. She has the authority to say "NO" loudly so she's senior enough to deal with it whatever branch you bank with.

 

Tip - send everything registered post (cost £1). They can't argue then at a later date. I didn't speak to anyone at Lloyds - I prefer to have headed notepaper responses for my files. Gave them two shots at paying - pretty fair I think.

 

Good luck with your claim. It really is quite simple.

 

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

Excellent news m8, Hope mine goes as swimmingly as yours

 

Dappa

Cheers Dappa - good luck with yours.

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

Hi Kotum,

 

I've always wanted to be a wolfclub!!!! Thx for your wishes. Make sure that you put your judgement by default in early (9.00am). If LLoyds do send a reply late it tales precident if you haven't issued your claim. Did you use moneyclaim.gov?

 

Looking at the responses, dont you think its odd that Lloyds cant respond to some (like ours) and put defenses in early for other cases? Not very together as an organisation.

 

Fingers crossed 4 2morrow.

 

I sent a Letter Before Action to Barclaycard today for £600 charges. So hopefully, I'm on a roll. To quote the Complaints Manager

 

"Mrs (wolfcub) if you must take us to court then so be it"

Bring it on.

 

Best of luck Kotum.

 

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

Hi Kotum,

 

Humm - charges are documented as a £3.2Bn revenue stream for banks in general. Even if Lloyds accounts for 10% of that - its a huge sum - enough to employ thousands to run around after our claims and at least respond to them!!

 

The man at Barclaycard took a gulp when I said I had sucessfully sued Lloyds. Strangely, said NOT to address the letter before action to him! Tee Hee. Copied him on it for the fun!

 

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

No. They had til 3.45pm on Tuesday. Nothing recorded at all as of midday today.

[wolfcub]

Wolfcub has to wait a bit longer. Default rejected (like Biscuiut) as they put a acknowlegement in 2 days late - and it takes precident.

 

No probs. I can wait til May 8th - or meet them in court.

 

Got Settlement with Barclaycard this morning. So not a bad day!

 

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

best of luck with yours, I'm not fussed....sure it's not fair but I can wait. I'm quite happy to argue face to face - if they are brave enough.

[wolfcub]

I did have a chuckle to myself when I received the copy of Lloyds Court Allocation Questionnaire over the weekend. In Qu 1, "Do you want more time to see if you can agree a settlement", they said YES.

 

Humm, since I have had 2 letter saying NO go away, no phone calls or any other communication for 6 weeks now, its facinating they want to talk. In fact, Me thinks they want to stall not talk.

 

I shall rig my PC and record the conversation with interest. Like all other I have their defence based on the fact it's a service.

 

If they want to stall, I can wait - but I'd rather meet them in court.

 

Wolfcub

 

 

THREADS MERGED. PLS STAY ON ONE THREAD.

[wolfcub]

Allocation Questionnaire sent in: 10 days later have court date in Sept. Anyone else have court date yet? Seems like they are settling some.......

[wolfcub]

It seems that Mrs Wolfcub will indeed meet Lloyds in court this wed pm. Their solicitors claim that they did not receive the court date from the Court.

 

We are meeting Wed as planned where they are pushing for an adjurnment and I will petition the judge to hear the full case on Wed. It is up to the judge to decide.

 

They have had 3 months since the date given by the court and they have failed to provide information requested by me on 6th June. They have clearly not looked at my file for 3 months.

 

Bankfodder - I'll PM you.

 

Looking forward to my date in court.......

[wolfcub]

Wolfy went to court yesterday - armed and ready to fight the mighty Lloyds TSB. Judge granted an adjurnment because Lloyds claimed they only knew of the court date 2 days ago (they knew 3 months ago). Much came out of the hearing, which I shall share later on..... I have to dash out to meet a client at the moment.

[wolfcub]

Hi, well a synopsis,

 

It was indeed the mother of all cock ups that I unded up in court from Lloyds point of view, They sent a local solicitor to ask for the adjurnement who was merely there for 15 minutes work. I was prepared with a complete (and confident legal) case and instead of caving in when they asked for the adjurnemnt announced that I would like to have the case heard there and then.

 

The eyes of Mrs "locum just been sent to get a adjurnement" bulged out of her head!! I petitioned the Judge to hear the case on the grounds that Lloyds had stalled, delayed and bullied me ( a small individual). Mrs x was very nice, but still reprenting Lloyds..

 

Think about it ....what if the tables were turned and a small individual turnd up in court against a PLC and said "I'm sorry, I didmt know about it.." It would be thrown out. "Sorry, not our problem" type of answer...

 

The Judge was sympathetic to the extreme (for me). She said that it would not be fair legally to let the case be heard as Mrs x could in no way defend the case. I petitioned her that this was really not my problem or fault... They have stalled dealyed. bullied and now constucted some xxxx excuse for a team of professional solicitors not to be ready.

 

She did say however:

 

-The cases being brought against the banks are the talk of the circuit

-They clog the system and get settled - implying they waste valuable court time(true)

-My case was important as i was in fact sitting in a court with a case to be heard and no cases ever get to court

-She understood they had stalled and basically refused the information I had requested and gave LLoyds a direct court order to provide me with the info I request 3 months ago (original copy of terms and conditions and details of all manual interventions on the account). They have to comply within 3 weeks.

- They would like a definitive resolution to these cases

- It needs effetively to go to the court of appeal (after winning a case) and to win at the court of appeal to get the change in law that these charges are UNFAIR TERMS

 

I was there for an hour. I shall post full details of my defence for all interested. (lloyds defence is that this is for a service) which in legal terms is arragant in the exteme.

 

Good luck to all. Hopefully, one day soon we shall actually see a change in the law.

 

It also stuck me that most people on this site have little idea of the bigger legal issue as to why charges are an unfair term in UK law and just focus on the charges they have been saddled with (naturally).

 

The bigger picture (i.e changing the law) is so so important. I'l write something up to post.

 

Goodnight.....Wolfy (Mrs)

 

Plus, did you know that the claimant can also be a witness and to write a full witness statement for the court hearing.... more when I have time

[wolfcub]

Dear all,

 

detailed below are my case notes which you may find useful. Please be aware that these are my notes and my opinions and should not be taken in shape or form as legal advice. If you are unsure about your case, you should always contact a solicitor.

 

Hope its useful,

Wolfy.

 

________________________________________________________________

The Facts

 

I have a contract with Lloyds TSB that is governed by UK Contract Law. I have held two accounts with Lloyds TSB since 2000 and Lloyds have charged me £xxxx in penalty charges in that time.

 

The Case under UK Contract Law

 

These charges are NOT for a service as the Defence claim, but are penalties.

Under UK contract law, Lloyds TSB is indeed entitled to make a charge for losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is not in dispute. Examples of breach of contract in this case are going over a set agreed overdraft limit, not having sufficient funds to pay a direct debit etc. The are explicit or implied breaches.

 

The law clearly states that a company cannot profit from a breach and the charge for a loss suffered from a breach of contract should be the amount necessary to put both parties in the same position before the breach occurred. This means that Liquidated damages are charged.

 

This is backed up by case law – Robinson Vs Harman 1848.

 

The law says that the charge for loss or damage must be proportionate to the loss incurred.

 

Charges are Penalties – “In-Terrorum”

 

These charges levied on my account by Lloyds TSB are penalties. The law states that a clause is a penalty if it provides for “a payment of money stipulated as in-terrorum of the offending party”. i.e. it designed to scare or coerce or it is used as a threat.

 

Lord Dunedin stated in the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co v New Garage & Motor Co 1915:-

 

“the sum is a penalty if it is greater than the greatest loss which could have been suffered from the breach”

 

It is also worth noting that Lloyds is a multi-national corporation. This term regarding charges was inserted unilaterally in contract. i.e. I had no opportunity to negotiate the clause.

 

The Costs Incurred by the Bank

 

Lloyds do not publish costs associated with going overdrawn, although they have been requested for this information. Neither do they outline how the cost of these charges is set.

 

The banks operate a highly computerised, automated process when dealing with charges. There is no evidence of any personal involvement by a member of Lloyds TSB staff. An account is flagged as being over the limit/non payment of a direct debit etc and the computers sends a mail-merged (by computer) letter which is fulfilled by an automated mailing house and posted.

 

Having been in marketing for 15 years I would estimate this cost to be £0.50-£1.00. There is no evidence of personal intervention. I received 9 individual letters from Lloyds in 9 envelopes, detailing 9 separate charges on ONE day in March 2003. If a person was involved, there would be one letter detailing the charges in one envelope and one stamp. In this example, I was charged £270 (£30 per item) in March 2003.

 

This is no data for UK banks but studies in the USA and Australia on this subject have estimated the real cost of sending a letter following no payment of a direct debit to be AUS $0.54 and US$0.50-$1.50.

 

It is worth noting that Lloyds charged unauthorised overdraft interest on an account in breach of its limit which is almost 0.30%. Perhaps a good pre-estimate of the loss they incur (i.e. liquidated damages).

 

External View and Comments

 

Pressed by the House of Commons Select Committee 2005, banks revealed these charges are designed to offset their debt recovery losses. (It’s therefore not about my account but a charge to contribute to all customers debt).

 

Peter McNamara, who was Head of Personal Banking at Lloyds, said in a BBC Radio 4 interview in 2004 that charges are used to fund free banking for all personal customers.

 

Finally the Office of Fair Trading on April5, 2006 suggested that these penalty charges are unfair.

 

Service – The Defence’s Argument

 

It is inconceivable how these charges are for a service. However in argument:

 

Their claim that under Section 7 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 (UTCCR99) states that their prices do not have to be fair, that they are NOT subject to the scrutiny of a court.

 

This then implies they can set them at whatever level they like - £100 for going over your overdraft limit? £150.00 for not paying a direct debt. Lloyds imply that their charges can be uncapped and unregulated.

 

However the Sale of Goods and Services Act 1982, sec 15.2 clearly states that the sum must be fair and reasonable. Is a 3000% mark up fair when the average mark up on the High Street is 100%?

 

This is an unfair term within the contract because it allows Lloyds TSB to charge any price they wish for a service - which is far in excess of the cost or value of the service.

 

Further under the UTCCR99, Sec 2 Par 1 states that

 

“A terms that allows a party to unilaterally raise of price or for a price to be determined on delivery is unfair”

 

Summary

 

The charge made by Lloyds TSB is not for a service but is a penalty charge, used in-terroum to frighten and coerce individuals not to breach their contract.

 

The charge made is not liquidated damages as it does not reflect the true cost of the breach incurred by Lloyds TSB. They have not offered any evidence of how these costs are constructed or proof that for example, bouncing a direct debit costs them £30.00.

 

I estimate that the cost is less than £1.00.

 

UK contract Law states that the charge must be the amount needed to put both parties in the position they were before the breach happened.

 

Contrary to Lloyd’s argument, there is both an explicit and implied breach of contract by myself by going over an agreed overdraft limit or not having sufficient funds in the bank to pay a direct debit. These charges are directly related to actual breaches in contract. They are not levied in any other situations that I am aware of.

 

These charges caused complete hardship for me in the first six months of 2003. In both Feb and March 03, Lloyds levied £270 for non payment of 9 direct debits. £540 in 2 months – more that the amount needed to pay a loan secured on my house (a clear priority) which resulted in a repossession order on my house. Huge costs were incurred by me in coming to court, paying xx company’s charges and the resulting administration charges. I did avoid repossession.

[wolfcub]

No problem. Glad to help. Have you put in your AQ yet?

[wolfcub]

Excellent. SCM are good at losing documents, delaying, stalling etc. The lady I spoke to last week was pretty abraisive! She asked me what I was going to rely on in court...I suggested that I would be relying on the law if it was Ok with her!!

 

If I get a settlement letter, I wont be accepting any terms and conditions. Its now a court directive that SCM have to provide a HUGE amount of paperwork to the court in 2 weeks time for my case (new court date Nov 16), so I suspect they may try to settle. If they dont, then so be it!! All the better.

 

Hang in there, It will all come good.

[wolfcub]

Hi Rachel,

 

SCM may well say that they didnt know about the date. Did they send you their copy of the AQ? I'm surprised they haven't settled as it's not thousands you're claiming back.

 

I suspect that SCM may need to go on an Account Management/Filing Efficiency course some time soon..... as they do not seem to be too good with their admin.

 

Best of luck

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

Hi Un1boy,

 

It may seem scary - but it's not. Its actually great to be able to go to court with a thorough legal argument. I did a fair amount of research and have a close friend who is a lawyer. But dont worry if it gets that far - I'll help you out, as i'm sure many other will do!

[wolfcub]

hi all

 

Tracie - I have PM'd you.

 

Everyone - thanks for all your good wishes. I'll have an update for you later this week. Today sent off all supporting evidence for the case - McNamara interview, cases I'll be relying on and other documents including the two OFT statements 5th April and 7th September.

 

Worth looking up if you haven't seen them. Go to:

Office of Fair Trading - making markets work well for consumers

 

 

Wolfy

[wolfcub]

Hi Freebird,

 

Hang tight and be confident. I wouldn't bother talking to SC&M any more. Let the process take it's course and you will get the result. If they want to fight, there are many like me who will help you all the way to suing their little touches off!!

[wolfcub]

Today at 4pm, Lloyds did not supply the information that the court said they HAD to deliver to me. This included original T'S and C's, details of manual intervention and get this...... how they make their charges. Yep, thats what we've always wanted to know but no bank has ever disclosed.

 

Now SCM did fax the court TODAY to say they made an offer. TRUE they did. I rejected it cos it didnt inlcude the interest and had confidentialy clauses etc. I rejected it a week ago. So they faxed the court and sai they had made an offer not telling the court I rejected it a week ago (by fax and rec del).

 

Had fun with a phone call which I recorded for the case. The fact they made an offer does not the case close.... I told them ever so politely that as far I was concerned the case was live, kicking, with another court date and nothing was settled. As such they had breached a county court order.

 

She kept saying it was he clients not SCM!!

 

I have never met such an ineffective, unprofessional and morally bankrupt set of organisations.

 

I shall write my press release and have BBC radio interview hopefully. 15 years in PR and marketing should come in useful now.

 

Wolfs

[wolfcub]

Hi Damian,

 

Sent it to :

 

Mandy Horton

Assistant Manager

125 Colmore Row

Birmingham B3 3SF

 

Don't be daunted by the size of the mountain, but look forward to the view from the top. Best of luck.

 

Wolfcub (mrs)