Location not as described @emblefarms court claim issued **REFUNDED**

[BankFodder]

Have you come to us to ask for some help or have you simply come here to do a hatchet job on this company?

If you are here to ask for some help to get some money back – then we would be happy to get involved. If you have simply come here to do a review which may or may not be accurate and then not to visit us or contribute any further but simply to spread your dissatisfaction over the Internet, then this is probably not the place.

Maybe you could let us know please

[BankFodder]

Well maybe that's partly because you don't tell us the story.

You haven't told us the dates, how much you paid, how long you stay there, – what about the food? Did you pay for it?

If you decide to tell us the whole story then we may be able to help you.

Also, you posted up some pictures which I suppose are pictures of the actual site. You haven't actually given us any comparators. Do think that might be helpful if you did?

[BankFodder]

Okay thanks.

I think that there are two good arguments here.

First of all that you went on the holiday and that it wasn't as described. We've only seen limited pictures – and you are the person who would have to provide all the evidence in order to persuade a judge if it went that far – as I can imagine it would.

The second backup argument is that you clearly have had a chat conversation with them whereby they've said very clearly that if you leave the property then they will refund you. That is strong evidence that there was a contract there in which you promise to leave – which you did and that they promise to refund you and they have reneged on that promise.

On that basis, I can't see them winning if you decide to make a claim.

The first argument is most interesting because presumably you took time off to go on the holiday. You incurred expenses travelling there and you incurred expenses travelling back. Please can you tell us what these were – and also are there any other expenses which you reasonably incurred and which you would not have incurred if you had gone on holiday.
In addition to that, there is an expectation loss which is the loss of enjoyment of the holiday. How many of you were involved?

I think we need to understand all of the inconveniences you suffered, the preparations you made et cetera to go on the holiday so that we can understand the extent of your losses.

The second argument that there was a contract to leave – is a fallback argument. On that argument you would not be able to claim any of those additional losses – simply a refund but it is very good fallback position.

I think that in addition to giving us the information that we've asked, you should also spend time looking around this forum about how to bring a small claim in the County Court. I'm quite sure that this is where this will lead. Of course when they realise that there is trouble coming then they will probably change their mind about the refund and give you a refund. You will have to decide whether the refund is sufficient or whether in fact you were to be compensated for your loss of enjoyment and for any other related expenses recently incurred.

Of course if they did then carry out the original promise to give you a refund – if you accepted this then it would be the end of the matter. On the other hand, if you feel seriously aggrieved by it all and you want to dig your heels in then you stand a good chance of success but I am quite sure that it would lead to litigation. Read up on it around this forum

Also read our customer services guide and if you have any further phone calls, make sure that you have recorded them. Read our customer services guide

[BankFodder]

Interesting point but there are several arguments against it.

Please monitor this straight for a fuller reply tomorrow

 

[BankFodder]

12 hours ago, Ethel Street said:

 

I agree BF but if it got to court I don't think it is actually a new contract. It sounds more like an agreement by both parties to vary the original contract. A bit pedantic maybe, but there is a difference.

 

Good morning.

Yes you are raising an interesting point – and it hadn't occurred to me.

If it is simply an agreement to vary the original contract – then it still operates as a fallback position and at the very least it guarantees the refund of the basic purchase price of a holiday.
Of course if it varies the original contract then it effectively changes the terms of the original contract so that one wouldn't be able to sue on those terms – and I suppose that is the point you are making.

However, in order to agree a variation of the contract both parties must bring something new to the deal. The problem for the holiday provider here is that if they have already breached the contract by selling something which is not as described, then I think the damage is already done, in principle they already owe the refund and so they are not bring anything new to this – ancillary – contract (maybe we can call it that).
On the basis that the holiday provider has not bought anything new to this "variation"/new contract (whichever), I suppose it would be open to the holiday provider to say that his offer was not binding on him because he had brought anything new to the contract because he was already obliged to make a refund anyway. Of course that would be an extraordinary thing to say – because he would basically be admitting that under the terms of the original contract he had breached it sufficiently to justify a claim for a refund. And of course once he reaches that position, then he has no basis for resisting any further claim for the recovery of ancillary losses.

Of course this is all becoming a bit abstruse. I think that the basic situation is that the the exchange of texts provides a fallback situation if the OP doesn't want to go for their ancillary losses based on the loss of enjoyment and actual expenses incurred going to and from the holiday destination.

The OP has already indicated that they would settle simply for refund of the basic holiday price. Of course that would be the easy option and it would solve everything and everybody could go home. On the other hand if this holiday has been seriously miss described then maybe some redress would be a very good idea not only to reimburse the OP but also to help protect others who found themselves in the same situation.

I suppose we really have to calculate what the value of additional losses might be and also how badly miss described the holiday site really was.

In terms of finding out more about the location of the holiday site, I suppose what we need are some Google photos and Satellite to give us a better idea of the situation rather than simply relying on the impression or perception by the OP. That way we can take a more objective view.

Also, we've heard that the OP and their companion took days off work to go this holiday. We don't how many days they took off all what the value of those days were and what percentage of their total annual holiday time those days might have represented. Also, we don't know what the OP and their companion did with the time which suddenly became available to them.
We could get into some complicated calculations here. The 20 quid of petrol is scarcely worth bothering about – but the expectation loss in the waste of time might be something to be reckoned with.

I can imagine that if there was simply a threat to recover the refund by means of legal action, that the defendant might stump up the money rather than push it to the issue of proceedings. On the other hand, if there was a demand for additional compensation, then the defendant may well decide to go the whole hog.

If the OP would be prepared to walk away if they had the refund then maybe the way to tackle the holiday provider is to tell them that if the refund plus their petrol money wasn't received within a certain amount of time then a claim would be lodged for the refund plus the petrol money plus a figure for expectation loss. That might be the extra bit of pressure needed to make the holiday provider fall into line without too much trouble.
 

[BankFodder]

Well trading standards won't be interested and there is no ombudsman for this kind of thing – and even if there was, it would make no difference. You really ought to check the availability of these complaint routes before you start using them as threats because you simply lose credibility

 

Anyway, regardless of the way he becomes aggressive, you have to decide what you want to do. You say you took four days off work – but you don't tell me what that is worth.

You say that you be happy to settle for the £409 – or whatever it was. So if you manage to get that without any further hassle, would that suit you?

I think you had fairly detailed explanations of your position and so you need now to start making decisions

[BankFodder]

Well maybe you should link us to their website and also to the relevant Google satellite views. We can give you a rough opinion – but at the end of the day the decision is yours. The legal action is yours to lose or to win.

The courts are very reluctant to make awards for things like loss of earnings and it would have to be very thoroughly evidenced. I understand that there were four days – what days where they? Friday to Monday?

[BankFodder]

You can certainly contact somebody if you want some help to write a letter – but we can do it all here.

What letter do you think you want to write at this point? Do you want to send a letter of claim or do you want to send a less conflictual letter?

[BankFodder]

When you say that the issue has already been "escalated", what do you mean?

[BankFodder]

Well of course you keep on talking about the attitude and the language used by the owner on the telephone – but this is not something you have any verifiable evidence of. I'm not disputing what you say, but there's no point in going on about it if you don't record your calls. It's too late to start recording your calls on this problem – but you should read our customer services guide and implement the advice there in future dealings with any company.

You would have a lot less problems in your life.

In terms of the letter, why let you prepare a rough draft of what you'd like to say and then we'll have a look at it. I suggest you try to give it factual and keep emotion and accusation out of it.

[BankFodder]

Not massively at this point – although the case would be started in the English courts.

No there aren't templates letters. I'm sure that you can't imagine that the circumstances of your case are so particular that we would have a template already for you simply to fill in the details and send off!

Spend a bit of time pulling down what you want to say and what you are proposing to offer or ask for – and then we'll have a look at it here.

[BankFodder]

Yes, I think if you raise this issue in court and go for your expectation losses then this question of the locality and the description of the holiday site is going to come under very close scrutiny – and you need to be very sure that you will be able to argue your case in a convincing way.

This is another reason why you are probably right to settle for the easier option and to get your promised refund – as you now appear to accept

[BankFodder]

Well write a letter – not too much "in your face" in which you point out the discrepancies and also refer to his promise to refund you if you left and that you have the chat messages of this. Invite him to make the refund but suggest that if you have to go ahead and claim the refund then you will have to do raise the issues of the description of his site as well.

Then if you don't get refund within a few days, issue a letter of claim.

[BankFodder]

Actually maybe a better and less conflictual approach could be to write to him, point out that he made the promise to refund you if you left did you did and so you think it would only be fair of him to make the refund. Don't mention the rest of the issues at this point.

If he doesn't reply within seven days or if he refuses, then maybe the thing to do is to write a further letter and point out that he's pushing you to County Court and that your claim will be for a much more serious amount including expenses and also bring up the issue of the description of the site.

I think a slow approach is probably the best here. If this guy loses his temper so easily in the way that you suggest, then he is clearly worried about losing Face instead of making rational decisions. Best thing to do is to try and help him save Face and to get your money.

If you back into a corner with all the other issues at an early stage then he might become more stubborn.

[BankFodder]

Yes you can send it by email – and it's fine although personally I would have avoided raising the other issues at this early stage

[BankFodder]

I propose some changes but it's your letter – and your litigation so you have to choose

[BankFodder]

Yes, that is broadly the plan. You don't lose anything by sending this letter but it is helpful to demonstrate how reasonable and accommodating you have tried to be.

[BankFodder]

Yes, that sounds reasonable enough.

[BankFodder]

You should follow the protocol and send a letter of claim giving them 14 days.

I suggest that you posted up here before you send it

[BankFodder]

2 hours ago, thebeehive said:

 

 

Mr and Mrs Douglas

Emble Farm

Seahouses

NE68 7UY

 

 

Dear Mr and Mrs Douglas

 

Letter of Claim

Holiday Reference Number XXX

 

As you know, after we arrived it your holiday location on XXX date, we took issue with you in terms of the description of the location in your marketing material as compared with the reality on the ground.

After discussion, we received a message from you saying that if we wanted to leave then you would refund us in full. On the basis of that and also on the basis that the holiday location did not fit its description, we took you up on your offer and we left.

Shortly after that you reneged on your promise and refused to give us the refund and despite attempts to contact you about this, you have continued to withhold the agreed refund.

I have to tell you that if you do not provide us with the promised refund within 14 days then we shall sue you in the County Court for the recovery of the promised £409 plus ancillary travel expenses expenses which we incurred travelling to and from your holiday site in reliance upon  the holiday agreement between us, plus interest and without any further notice.
 

 

Regards

 

Dr. Thanh-Lan Gluckman

5/7 Lord Russell Place

Edinburgh 

EH9 1NQ

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by BankFodder
Dictation typo!!

[BankFodder]

Did it really say that???

[BankFodder]

I've just checked - I think that you must be mistaken ....

I hope that the OP hasn't simply copied and pasted

[BankFodder]

You had better let me know what that is because I'm not aware of it. You may well be referring to a claim for a debt rather than a breach of contract.

Let me know what you are referring to – but probably the response will be that you should simply send the letter

[BankFodder]

good. In that case just send the letter. Make sure that you have registered on money claim online then you are prepared to issue the claim 15 days after the letter of claim has been received

[BankFodder]

Thank you for giving us this update. Many people don't bother.

I hope that the mediated settlement was satisfactory to you. Are you able to disclose what it was?

And thanks very much indeed for the donation. We need everything we can get.