Return of vehicle, distance sale

[BankFodder]

You haven't told us how much you paid for the vehicle. I understand that you are probably in Scotland – where else in the country did you buy the vehicle from?

Of course what you are being told about in terms of the applicable law is correct – and you should certainly make sure that you have sent a letter by registered guaranteed next day delivery rejecting the car on the basis of the distance selling rules. If you haven't done that now then do it immediately. In the letter make it clear that you are confirming your rejection of the goods which you made on X X X date.

Now down to the practicalities.

You have a car sitting outside your home or in your driveway and unfortunately it looks to me as if you are going to be saddled with it for some time unless you start taking a realistic view. If the dealer refuses to refund you then you are burdened with the vehicle and also out of pocket and you will have to start a legal action to recover the money.

If instead you ship the car back at your own expense – then presumably you will be refunded your money and then you will be able to bring an action for any other expenses you have suffered. Although this is a nuisance, at least it scales the problem down to a more manageable size and of course you no longer have the problem of a car sitting outside your home.

How much do you pay?

[BankFodder]

Also, you haven't told us who the dealer is

[BankFodder]

Yes, the dealer is responsible – but if you stand by your legal rights then it will just become a much more difficult problem to solve. If you get rid of the car then you reduce the problem to the cost of transportation plus interest.

What is the cost of transporting the car back?
How far is Birmingham away from you?

 

Evolve Cars don't seem to have a website.

Also, I'm afraid that the number of stars et cetera on auto trader is really no great guide. We found with quite a number of car dealers that these reviews tend to be manipulated

[BankFodder]

We are aware of the legislation. But you aren't addressing the point I'm making.

[BankFodder]

Thank you. You still haven't told me how far it is away from you.

It's up to you, if the dealer really wants to be intransigent then you can keep the car in your driveway and sue for the refund of the money – and you could probably add a reasonable storage charge. Chances of success are much better than 95%. However, bringing county court action is a slow business nowadays – and you will have to pay a court fee – and then an allocation fee if the dealer decides to push you to a hearing. I understand that you are in Scotland – although you still haven't addressed this point. I understand that you are probably some distance away – although you haven't responded to this question either.
I'm not sure whether this would be considered to be a Scottish case to be held in Scotland – assuming that that is where you are (although you haven't answered) or an English case in which case it would be heard in England and if there was a hearing you might have to travel there.

So you will be bringing an action for over £2000. On the other hand, if you ship the car back then assuming that the dealer did refund you, then you would merely be suing for the transportation costs plus interest.

A much smaller problem to deal with. Much cheaper in terms of court fees although the question of Scottish or English jurisdiction would still arise.

Also, you wouldn't have an unwanted lump of metal sitting in your front drive for anything up to 6 months or nine months if the dealer really wanted to string it out

[BankFodder]

Thank you.

 

Assuming that you can't persuade the dealer to carry out his proper responsibilities, then you have to decide whether you want to hang onto the vehicle until it's collected, or get rid of it and then pursue him for the cost of transportation.

It's a decision you need to make between you and your father. I have to say that my view is that scaling the problem down from about £2000 to about £350 – it's a no-brainer but it's up to you

[BankFodder]

Yes I'd forgotten about the costs of bringing the car up to you. I think that will probably not be recoverable because this is something that you decided on and wasn't part of the original deal. However, I would include it as part of your claim.

If you decide to bring a claim in respect of this then I would be seeing not only on the distance selling regulations but also on the fact that he vary the contract after it was made and that you would not have bought a motorcar for scrap.

I quite agree that it is a problem that you could lose the car and the money. I'm not sure how to guarantee that the money will be paid over.

I want to make an observation now that you probably won't be happy with – but anyway, it is that the very least for the sake of other people who read the thread.

We have a very large number of people on this forum who have problems with second-hand car dealers when buying used cars – especially use cars which are pretty cheap. £1850 is very cheap.

The problem is exacerbated by people purchasing cars over long distances. I would say that almost every used car problem we have on this forum involves a rather cheap vehicle which has been purchased two or three or 400 miles away so that not only is there the problem of collecting the vehicle, there is also the problem of taking it back – and if it breaks down there is also the problem of getting it back to the dealer for repairs.

For some reason rather people see an old car being advertised in Autotrader or somewhere else and regardless of the distance away and all the logistical problems if it goes wrong et cetera, they treat it as if it's the best thing since sliced bread and the only good used car bargain in the entire country.
This is always a recipe for disaster.

We've been helping someone recently who lives in Scotland and bought a car in Surrey. Travelled 500 miles to collect the car and then 500 miles back. Then the car started causing problems and he took the car back again another 500 miles and picked up a replacement and drove back 500 miles. The replacement started causing trouble and he had to drive back 500 miles again to return it – and then there was an issue over the refund of money.

You bought the car for £1850. You paid getting on for £400 to have a transported so in fact the car has cost you £2150 and if it turned out to have some faults then you would be obliged to either drive it back get it back to Birmingham in order to get it repaired – or if not you would have to have it repaired in Scotland at your own expense.

I don't know if this seems like good value to you but I can't believe that there aren't excellent used vehicles much closer to you and not accompanied by all these additional expenses and additional problems.

I don't know how remote an area you live in in Scotland but by and large I would caution against buying any used car outside a 25 or 30 mile radius.

I hope you will at the very least send the letter that I suggested rejecting the car by special delivery – tomorrow.

[BankFodder]

I'm sure that the ad did sound great – but it would be amazing if somebody placed an ad which sounded awful. Some afraid that really doesn't say anything at all.

I'm afraid that trading standards will do nothing. They don't have the resources and they're not interested in this kind of complaints which they hear all the time. If you set your hopes by them then I'm afraid you are cruising for a bad disappointment in addition to the problem of the car.

If you want this car so badly because it is special in some way then another solution might be to get an estimate for repairing all the defects and then suing the dealer for that money if you won't come across with it.
Of course you have to have a good explanation for not returning it to him because normally speaking you would have to give the dealer an opportunity to repair it.

I understand very well indeed that you are a car enthusiast – but probably this may be stretching your enthusiasm to the limit. Certainly I note that you say that if you had seen the vehicle you would never have brought it back with you.

[BankFodder]

And by the way, bank transfer is almost always fatal. If the dealer insisted on bank transfer then they should have alarm bells ringing loud and clear.

Another precaution one can take if buying a car at a long distance like this is to get an independent inspection – maybe by the AA or someone. Although this means an extra outlay, you can probably then proceed with the purchase with some confidence. Also, you wouldn't have the problem of the dealer suddenly changing the contract after it had been made and not having any evidence of the original contract – although the dealers advertisement is probably good enough.

It sounds to me as if the dealer has been thoroughly dishonest with you – and you are right to be worried about what might happen to your refund if the vehicle is returned.

[BankFodder]

Just to get the terminology right. There was a contract. You don't need to have a contract in writing for there to be a binding agreement. What is being said is that all the notification requirements et cetera required to bring the distance rules into play were not abided by.

I shall be very pleased if trading standards really you take an interest – but I have to say that on our experience here, it's very unlikely. If it happens though please let us know

[BankFodder]

I don't think there's anything more we can say. You understand the situation and the options and now it is for you to make choices

[BankFodder]

On the contrary, it sounds like a lot of money to me and having to add a 400 mile journey onto it it makes it an absolutely bad bargain

[BankFodder]

Now you don't need to ask him if he wants to go through an ADR route. Frankly if he chooses that route outside the court process/mediation – then there is nothing to enforce against him in case he reneges.

[BankFodder]

Okay if this is a Scottish case then I'm afraid I don't know the way that mediation is handled. However, without going back through the thread, I have the impression that you bought this car in England and therefore it may be an English contract and would have to be dealt with in the English courts – in which case mediation would be proposed after the defendant has decided to put in a defence

[BankFodder]

Okay so you have sent a letter of claim. That's fine – but an important rule is that you should be aware of all the steps that you have to take before you commence any line of action. You send letter of claim without having done that so that tends to mean that you aren't really certain of what you are taking on when you have made the threat.

Bringing a County Court claim is not a big deal – but in terms of being confident about what you're doing, you should understand the steps.

One thing I haven't figured out yet is whether this is a Scottish claim or an English claim.  I'm hoping that @Andyorch can take us through it if it is a Scottish claim

[BankFodder]

Yes, I think that that is an important first step – and I'm sorry to say that it would have been better for you to have been aware of the steps before you fired off a letter of claim. I think you need to doublecheck on the Scottish courts website as well. Not only will they give you information as to jurisdiction – but you will find some of the basic rules concerning the starting of a claim in Scotland as well as the steps to follow.

I'm afraid that I don't think that Scottish County Court procedure is a particularly strong area on this forum. 10 years ago or so, we used to have a lot of input from people who had cases in Scotland – but that seems to have died off recently.

Any information that you give us about what you are doing will be helpful – and I'm sure that some people will have some knowledge or experience and will be happy to contribute.

So you need to know the steps in bringing the claim. How you begin the claim – and then what the various timescales after that.

On the basis that you win your claim will then have to understand how you go about enforcement. Some people think that bringing a claim and then winning is the end of the matter. Unfortunately, enforcement is a totally separate step and although you might win your case and you have a judgement in your hand, you then have to make a separate application to enforce the judgement and that is often where things can go wrong. Judgements are quite often easy to obtain – but where have got a defendant use deliberately evasive or slippery, you then find that enforcement could even become impossible. It's very frustrating.

If you consult the Scottish citizens advice website you will probably get good advice there as well.

 

[BankFodder]

This thread is starting to drone on and on.

The distance selling rules are clear and if the necessary information is not been provided then it's correct that there is 12 months to reject the vehicle for any reason. In addition to that, there may be a breach of contract as regards the condition of it – but I'm not sure that we have been told what is wrong with the vehicle. Maybe @Aton2244 would like to tell us?

Additionally, @Aton2244 seems to be completely hung up on their legal entitlement and also the apparent power of trading standards to sort it out.

The legal entitlement is not in doubt. Once again I'm going to say that trading standards will not be able to do anything – partly because they don't have the resources – partly because they think that they are fitted for higher things than an individual case of somebody who bought a cheap second-hand car at long distance. I'm sorry but the role of trading standards nowadays has become some thing like an urban legend.

As I said at the beginning of this discussion – about three weeks ago, we have to think of the practicalities. The rights of clear and it's up to the OP who decide to take the action which we will be pleased to help with.

The problem of course will be one of enforcement and I've made this clear as well.

I agree that it's a risk that the vehicle could be returned without the money being refunded. I don't know the answer to this. If there is some kind of stand-off about who is going to pay for the transportation costs then this seems to me to be ridiculous if that is the only thing in the way. I almost get an impression that both parties think that it's a matter of pride that the other should be made to pay for the transportation costs.
If that's what it is then it becomes a stumbling block to sorting out the whole problem.

This thread is developing into some aimless discussion thread that is becoming repetitive and really should be moved to Facebook where that kind of thing happens

 

[BankFodder]

It's a shame that you won't so assertive and cautious when you bought the car. You might not have found yourself with this problem

[BankFodder]

I don't think there'll be any problem if and when it gets in front of a judge. However I think that there is a big possibility that enforcement is going to be a nightmare.

I hope not

[BankFodder]

As has already been said here, whether it takes five minutes or longer, the case will be closed in your favour.

Enforcement is going to be a completely different issue.

When do you issue your claim?

Have you drafted the particulars yet? You may want to post them up here so we can have a look and comment before you actually issue the claim

[BankFodder]

I'm interested in your comments as to why should you have to explain any details about the condition of the car – basically because you feel that you have got adequate rights under the distance selling rules

When you litigate, if you have two good arguments to base your claim upon then you are better off using both. That means that if one founders, the other one may hold up.

I think you should give us some information about the condition of the car and also give us insight of the advertisement and the claims made for it we may be able to view some advice on that issue.

 

[BankFodder]

Thank you.  And have you had an independent assessment of the car in order to address all of the elements of the car which have been referred to in the advertisement?

[BankFodder]

It probably won't be necessary but on the other hand, no harm done. You could send him notice that you are challenging the points in his advertisement. This the mount point by point and tell him that you are having these points independently assessed and that you will be proposing to recover the costs of an assessment from him in the event that he attempts to dispute any of it.

I think if you lay down a paper trail and show that you have behaved transparently and warned him of any costs, that you will probably be awarded them.

Once again, whether you can enforce it – is another matter.