Chased for DUBAI Debt -Moriarty LAW PAP ( Been here before with CWD)

[jollyrodger]

Dear Members

 

 

I left Dubai in 2014 and due to unfortunate circumstances

I did leave Credit Card debt behind. (long sad story)

I did not fancy jail as I do have two small kids under 7 and Im happily married. (until she reads this)

 

Last Payments made between September - December 2014

Coyle White & Devine have written their standard letter and have given me 21 days to reply.

(see later below wich has some specifics edited out)

 

 

They want immediate payment for their client in UAE and have given me two options.

 

1 -Debt Recovery Proceedings to be issued before Northampton (CCMCC)

 

 

2- Bankruptcy proceedings to be issued before the nearest county court to my home with insolvency jurisdiction

 

 

I immediately lost 6 pounds in weight when I read this.

 

First thoughts

 

1.Ignore CWD

 

2.Get house that I have in wife’s name

 

3.Sell the house and have a party

 

4.Get advice

I immediately thought the worst that they would come in ; my house would be sold; mortgage settled and they take their money and then im screwed.

 

I realise this is the worst case and I know may people on here have raises posts

but I really would like to know what the best next step is.

 

 

I was going to write and ask for the following--

--SNIP--

 

 

--Ask CWD for written confirmation from the Dubai bank that CWD are legally authorised to act.

 

Ask CWD for a copy of the original agreement that the Dubai Banks claims to have had with you.

 

 

Also a copy of the last statement of account from the Dubai Bank.

 

 

Also confirmation from the Dubai Bank of any Court judgements they have obtained in Dubai regarding the alleged debt.-

---SNIP---

 

 

-Can anyone give me some real advice?

 

Q1 - In regards talking my name of the mortgage; is this possible or advisable?

 

Q2- If the worst case happens (doom and gloom merchant)

how would I get my credit card companies to be the next creditor on a list for my house sale

No1 = Bank

No2 = Any Credit card companies

No3 = CWD gets what’s left if any

 

 

We were going to sell our small place in the summer ;

not huge equity and help it clear our debts (not Dubai debts) and start afresh.

 

 

I realise I have asked many questions and In really wuld appreciate some advice.

 

 

If I have to have a solicitor I would prefer it be a recommended one in dealing with Coyle White Devine

 

 

Appreciate any help and advice.Jolly Rodger -

--------------------------SNIP---------------------------------------

 

Dear Sir Indebtedness to

“Insert Crappy UAE Bank Here

 

 

”We act on behalf of DODGY UAE Bank ,

based in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates (“UAE”).

 

 

We have been instructed by our client to engage with you

and to make arrangements for the repayment of your credit card debt to our client.

 

We hope that you will engage with us for this purpose.

If you do not, then we have instructions to commence legal proceedings against you which,

regrettably but inevitably,

will result in your liability increasing by reason of the contractual costs indemnity (“the Costs Indemnity”)

which was agreed in writing with our client when you applied for (and obtained) your banking facilities.

 

 

In terms of prospective legal proceedings,

 

 

please note that our client’s position is fully reserved in terms of the choice between:

 

(a) Debt recovery proceedings to be issued before Northampton (CCMCC) county court; or

 

(b) Bankruptcy proceedings to be issued before the nearest County Court to your home with insolvency jurisdiction.

Regardless of the above choice of legal forum (and whilst stressing again that we hope court proceedings

can be avoided through engagement and negotiation) we ought to clear up a common misconception

which has arisen in the course of our debt recovery work for this client

and for numerous other client banks operating within the UAE.

 

Whilst the terms under which you are indebted to our client are governed by the laws of the UAE,

our client is free to (and does) pursue legal proceedings in numerous jurisdictions around the world.

 

 

An express term within the contractual terms and conditions to which you signed up

and agreed states that no single court (whether in the UAE or elsewhere) has “exclusive” jurisdiction to determine these credit card debt claims.

 

 

Based on expert evidence given on the applicable laws of the UAE by Baker & McKenzie Habib Al Mulla (leading lawyers in the UAE)

we are currently securing an average of ten judgments each month before Northampton (CCMCC) County Court.

 

In relation to your indebtedness,

we have satisfied ourselves that your liability to our client is immediately due

and owing and, as such, legal proceedings can be commenced in the UK at any time

 

.However, as we have stated, we hope that legal proceedings can be avoided and that,

instead, you will engage with us and agree to the repayment of your liability.

 

 

To this end, we are able to give you 21 days from the date of this letter to make proposals to repay your debt which currently stands at AED XXXXXX .

 

 

If the above indebtedness is paid in full to our client within 21 days, then no additional liability for our legal costs will arise under the Costs Indemnity.

 

However, this concession will only be made available to you on these terms and for this period

– so without operating in any way as a waiver to the terms of the Costs Indemnity.

 

 

Beyond this 21 day period, but before legal proceedings are commenced,

a fixed legal charge of £xxxx will be applied to your account.

 

 

Once Proceedings are commenced; legal costs are charged on a “time spent basis” with court fees

and disbursements added to our time charges as and when they are occurred

 

Please note that all settlement monies need to be paid in Dirhams to our client directly.

 

 

Companies such as Western Union can make the necessary arrangements on your behalf once settlement terms are agreed.

 

 

When this stage is reached we will provide you with necessary account details within our clients debt recover operation in Dubai.

 

 

Mr Pail Coleman has been allocated to your account.

 

Please make written repayment proposals to Miss Perry by no later than close of business on xxxx

(21 days of recipet)Mr Coleman’s email address is set out above if email communications are more convenient for you

. We look forward to hearing from you. Yours faithfully

 

--------------------------SNIP---------------------------------------

Edited March 16, 2015 by jollyrodger

[citizenB]

Hi jollyrodger and welcome to CAG.

 

I am trying to find someone who can help you.. meanwhile, you might want to have a read round the forums and check out other threads in respect of this company.

[jollyrodger]

Hi - Citizen BI have a good look round and it would seem there are many people who are having such issues.

 

thanks for the quick reply.

 

ThanksJolly Rodger

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?429696-Coyle-White-Devine-going-to-Court-over-UAE-Bank-Loan-debt&p=4706919&viewfull=1#post4706919

 

Post # 30 in the thread linked above has some good advice from Uncle Bulgaria

[jollyrodger]

Indeed I have that copied and drafted. Did Cazar every sort out a sort of CWD advise forum/blog?Thanks The Pirate

[unclebulgaria67]

I think that is all you can do at the moment. Put the ball in their court and ask them to come back with more information.

 

If you have a mortgaged property you might not be able to mess around with changing names registered, as the mortgage company may not allow it. There would need to be assessment made about the person remaining, being able to afford the mortgage on their own. Also you cannot just change the land register details as that would not be allowed by the mortgage company.

 

Then there is the issue of transfering assets before any possible bankruptcy. Would not work, as you were deliberately trying to avoid the debt. In the event of bankruptcy, the mortgage would be paid first. This Dubai debt would not be a high priority.

 

If CWD come back with the information required, you could just enter into making minimal payments, based on what you could afford, after meeting all of your other outgoings. They may ask for details of your income/expenditure to justify low payments and you could just put some basic details down, which confirms your position of not being able to pay very much. I don't expect that CWD will continue, once they realise that only very small payments would be made and leave you to deal with the Dubai Bank.

[jollyrodger]

Hi UncleMany thanks.

 

Ive read many of your posts over these threads.

 

I took the template from one of your posts :-)I guess so.

 

I dont mind going I not an agreement on debt repaymnets but tahts way of.

 

My I ask how I would check if my UK credit cards e.g MBNA are a secured creditor before people like CWD?

 

I believe Mortgage is first.

And then CWD would be next unless someone is in there beforehand e.g Credit Card Company 1 etc

 

If worst came to worst I would rather have all UK debts paid/cleared albeit I would be bankrupt

 

Uncle- Is it relevant to use the CCA template on the CAG forum or would CWD uickly come back and say its not relevant

 

ThanksJR

[unclebulgaria67]

If they come back with the information and you agree to make small affordable payments, then I expect it would stop them going for any UK court judgement or bankuptcy, as you are not avoiding the debt. A UK court would want any creditor to try to deal with the debt in a reasonable way before they became involved. They should also really be using the normal county court process first, before any bankuptcy is considered.

 

Credit card debts are not secured. Mortgage and any other loans secured to your UK house would be considered first. Then the other debts would be dealt with in a certain order, for which you will find details online, if you search for bankruptcy rules. It is all laid down in the insolvency legislation and it would be up to a court appointed officer to follow the rules.

 

Just see how it goes. No need for any rash actions at this stage. There is no barrier to a Dubai creditor going to a UK court, if the debtor resides in the UK. But they won't be doing this, while you have made requests for information.

[citizenB]

In response to your question in post # 7 - any secured creditor or priority debt.. mortgage, secured loans, council tax, even the tv licence I think, would come before any unsecured creditor eg.. MBNA, CWD.

[unclebulgaria67]

Uncle- Is it relevant to use the CCA template on the CAG forum or would CWD uickly come back and say its not relevant? ThanksJR

 

Not relevant as it relates to UK law. Just a basic letter asking for the information is needed.

[jollyrodger]

 

Whats your next stage?

 

Thanks

 

Jolly Redger

[unclebulgaria67]

Lil21Whats your next stage?They came back with the information to you very quickly- Yes.Whats your next step?ThanksJolly Redger

 

In other cases reported on CAG, they have not come back very quickly. Just make the request and see how it goes. A credit card debt in Dubai is not a priority, as you have to take care of your UK finances first. If they supply all the information, work out what you can afford and make an offer of monthly payments based on your current income/expenditure situation.

[jollyrodger]

Morning Uncle and Other Peeps

I’ve been reading up on charging orders against the home and panicking a little.

Do you know if it’s possible for me to contacting my exiting UK credit card companies and have the credit cards secured against my home?

 

My thinking being –Equity is 50k (example)Split equity between wife and I. (assuming we sell house)

 

I have 25k as my cash assets.

My UK credit cards are secured against this and they are paid of and whatever left can go to the UAE bank.

 

Let me add that we were going to sell this year anyway and so the house will be sold but I just want to minimise what’s CWD get?

Also on the Land Registry –

 

Is there any online free searches where you can see if anyone has applied for a charging order; even though they must inform you.?

Any advice appreciated.

JR

[citizenB]

You can check with Land Registry to see if anyone has applied for a Charging order on your property.. link below.

 

However, unless there has been a claim issued against you and judgment awarded to the claimant, that step cannot be taken.

 

https://propertyalert.landregistry.gov.uk/

 

https://www.gov.uk/protect-land-property-from-fraud

[jollyrodger]

Many thanks Citizen BI signed up for alerts just to know whats going on.

[unclebulgaria67]

Stop reading stuff on the internet and worrying about it. There would have to be a court claim before a charging order can be applied for. They know where you live, so you would be notified of the court claim and if there is a judgement against you, then you can ask to negotiate an affordable payment amount. For them to get a charging order, there would be another process for this, after you failed to respond to the judgement.

 

You cannot have your credit credit debt secured against your house. There would have to be a court claim by the creditors against you.

 

I think you really need to get some UK debt advice about your situation and it may be worth speaking to Stepchange who are a debt registered charity . If you are going to sell your house, make sure you get advice about what you should do with any money that you have left, after paying any mortgage.

[jollyrodger]

Should do with any money that you have left, after paying any mortgage.

 

Uncle - Understood. The internet can be truly wonderfull and terrrifying at the same time.

[citizenB]

Many thanks Citizen BI signed up for alerts just to know whats going on.

 

 

[jollyrodger]

Morning Folks

 

I had a credit card agreement sent to me by a chasing solicitor (for Middle East Debt) which shows my original application for a Credit Card. Signed etc

 

It was received 6 months ago and looked like a dubious copy. I have asked for a better copy and I was sent what they termed a "cleaned" copy

 

Can someone explain what this term is i.e cleaned ; though similar to the initial document its not the same document i.e it looks like its either an attempt to be a copy or this term "cleaned" copy means something else and that there is no forgery/fraud issue.

 

If someone could explain.

 

Doc 1 = Initial Copy

Doc 2 "cleaned"= Very different to Document 1

 

Cheers

 

Jolly Rodger

[citizenB]

Any chance you can upload both documents to your thread so we can have a peek.

 

I am thinking that if the first copy is unreadable, they might have reconstructed the document for the 2nd copy - for the purposes of s78 (request for the agreement) they are permitted to do.

 

If you are in the UK and the debt is overseas, would they be able to pursue you for this anyway ?

[unclebulgaria67]

Have CWD sent this to you or is it direct from the Dubai Bank ? Think you should write back asking what is meant by a cleaned copy.

 

Just keep the letter simple, by asking that question. You don't need to say anything more.

 

Then see how they respond.

 

Thought you had dispute issues to raise in Dubai about this debt ? Have they proven the debt exists and how the amount is calculated ?

[citizenB]

JR - 2 responses for you

 

If they do have jurisdiction to pursue this in the UK as per their T&Cs ref 19 (no ref 19 to be found) :???:then wait until/if they issue the claim...no point doing anything until they do actually issue.

 

If you wont be able to pay the debt anyway' date=' I'd inform CWD of that and offer a low settlement. CWD will be more expensive than someone like Lowells and the bank might not go ahead with court action if it thinks it won't get anything. Ask for the T&Cs if don't already have them.[/quote']

[jollyrodger]

Thanks CitizenB

 

Ive sent you a mail to the Yahoo address

[citizenB]

[jollyrodger]

@ UncleBulgaria67

Without Prejudice

(the above was for the lurkers from the dark side)

I did ask the simple question and they stated the following:-

“We have provided you with clear copy of the Credit Card agreement . The expression “clean copy” simply meant a copy that was legible.

Now this clean copy let’s call it Copy 2 is a different document from the original (Copy 1) . I don’t even think it’s my signature on this Copy 2 document bit that’s another story. At the end of the day I did use the credit card allegedly

They have supplied me all statements from the onset of accepting the credit card to when I left Dubai and stopped using it.

Also they supplied dubious T&Cs with no dates or initialled or headed paper with the famous Clause 19 about Jurisdiction which I believe is a very misunderstood term in our legal system with county court judges where Middle Est debts are now being taken to task in the UK.

I could not imagine a UK company who have a QMS (Quality Management System) in place and have all the ISO certification that would produce some T&Cs as evidence that are not on company headed paper and neither have any dates of when it was created. Neither initialled by myself.

Its something I could create and say – “look these are the T&Cs that were valid at the time you took the Credit Card. Prove otherwise”

The word “reconstituted” has not been mentioned in any correspondence and maybe they are saving this for court but I would wonder if they could pick and choose UK Consumer Credit Acts that would form part of the S78 Process.

Comments welcome Uncle.

JR