Jbw bailiff being really agressive & misleading about CTAX 'debt'

[Marianne7]

I am being chased for an old council tax bill. The council has set up an attachment of earnings arrangement with my employer (NHS). Now I have had a visit from an agent of JBW who is being very insistent, but not physically threatening. I was about to leave home for a funeral when he called so didn't wish to talk to him in any detail at that time.

 

I have now found the paperwork for the AOE and my plan was to email a copy of this to JBW. Surely they cannot come at me from all directions like this? I work on the NHS bank, usually 20 hours pw but sometimes less, so I don't earn very much and couldn't possibly pay any more out monthly.

 

But I have also heard that one shouldn't enter into any arrangement with them, so my question is: if I email them with the copy of the AOE, saying that is already in place, would that constitute an arrangement?

 

Many thanks.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Marianne7
Mistake

[unclebulgaria67]

Just advise them that there is already an AOE for the council in relation to this council tax liability order, so they should refer it back to the council who appear to have made a mistake.

 

This would nof represent any arrangement, but simply letting JBW know the situation,

[Marianne7]

Thank you, reassured me.

[dx100uk]

might pay you to contact the council

just incase there has been a slip up.

 

 

You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

[Marianne7]

Thank you, dx

 

There may possibly be others

- I have paid various amounts in various chunks to various debt collectors over a good few years;

these amounts were paid when I could borrow a few hundred sometimes

or when I managed to get enough to pay some off,

 

 

have been very difficult to keep track of,

as paid at random times to several companies.

 

 

I did ask the council once to tell me exactly what I now owed but have never been able to get a direct answer, as they say it's now up to the different collectors.

 

On my current home I am ore or less up to date, but some of these relate to a few years ago when I was struggling and unemployed.

[dx100uk]

council tax debt [unless you are in Scotland]

are never farmed out to debt collectors...

always BAILIFFS.

 

don't get the terms mixed up as there is a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE

between the two.

 

A DCA HAS NO LEGAL POWERS WHATSOEVER.

a bailiff does have legal powers.

[Marianne7]

Right, I see. Does that change any of the advice so far? Should I still contact them and tell them about the AOE from the council to my employer?

 

Also I have paid several not inconsiderable sums to other bailiffs then, but don't know which ones or exactly how much - you can tell I'm not very good about keeping track of things.

[dx100uk]

Council Will have a list if all payments too

[Marianne7]

Thanks for your help. I have contacted JBW this morning to tell them about AOE, but I will also ask the council for a complete break down of payments.

[Marianne7]

I realise now, after dx's info, that this is probably in the wrong section, but will update with news anyway.

 

I did call JBW on Monday morning,

told them about the AOE, but also said I'd talk to the council

- I intended to go there on Thurs a.m. as no work that morning.

 

 

However, on Tues a.m. I got a call from someone else at JBW.

This one said he was an enforcement officer (the first one I spoke to was apparently just an enforcement agent - is there really a difference?)

 

 

he was very forceful and unpleasant, saying he was coming round that morning to take our goods.

I was just about to walk in to work.

He said I had no more time, despite the fact that I'd spoken to his colleague just the day before.

 

desperately needing some time I asked him how much I needed to pay then to stop him coming

- and I paid £537 on a debit card there and then which just about cleared what was in the bank.

 

 

He'd promised to call me back when it went through but I didn't hear from him,

after 30 mins I rang him again.

 

 

This time he said the council wouldn't take £537 and now wanted double that, over £1000.

No chance, and I'm afraid I began to cry.

Then he started with "I'll talk to them and see what I can do..."

 

 

sure enough he called me again after 30 mins to say he had sorted it,

the first payment was sufficient,

but I may need to pay another £346 the next day,

and then set up a payment plan.

 

 

I said there was no way I could raise that in 24 hours.

Was desperate by this time.

He made me promise to call him before noon the next day.

 

This morning I called the council.

I got a very helpful lady who said they would never refuse a payment and certainly not ask for £1000 if the person had just paid over £500. So he lied.

 

 

She gave me the number for JBW (only had this "officer's" mobile number) and said if I had any problems to call the council back again.

 

 

When I called JBW they said I HAD to speak with the chap I'd spoken to yesterday.

He was the only one who could make the arrangement.

Presumably that's something to do with his commission?

 

 

I rang the council back and they have sent me a form with income/outgoings, etc and said they MAY be able to negotiate a figure with JBW but they won't take back the debt.

 

And that's where we are now.

[dx100uk]

ok

I've retitled and moved you to the bailiff forum.

 

and an apology

we should have warned you that a bailiff will say ANYTHING to spoof you out of more money.

 

bottom line is theres very little they can actually do to you

they cant force entry on CTAX debts

so in essence you can ignore them

and simply don't let them in.

no matter WHAT they say.

 

the only pitfall is their fees...

you'll get a notice of enforcement giving you 7 days to pay

then £75 is added

then if they do turn up

its a further fee of £235

 

but that's ALL they can charge.

 

now ...

 

did the council confirm this is the SAME Liability Order that the AEO is to do with?

[Bailiff Advice]

I am viewing the thread on my phone so will respond in the morning.

[Marianne7]

Thanks, dx

 

Apparently they have 3 orders, and one of them is the AOE.

 

My only excuse for being so useless is that at the time I was going through treatment for bowel cancer (all OK now but still being seen regularly by hospital), and my son was living with me, who has mental health issues.

 

 

It was a bad time and things like council tax didn't seem to be a priority.....

[dx100uk]

so obv this current action is for another of the old LO's?

or are all three rolled into the AEO?

 

 

you've just bought up an interesting point

vulnerability, are the council and the bailiffs aware of the issues?

 

 

if not, you need to tell them.

it might well help/null the issues..

 

 

ideally the council should take this back from the bailiffs if they deem your situation vulnerable.

 

 

dx

[Bailiff Advice]

 

I rang the council back and they have sent me a form with income/outgoings, etc and said they MAY be able to negotiate a figure with JBW but they won't take back the debt.

 

Once the local authority has passed the accounts to their bailiff provider, it is most unusual indeed for them to take the account back. The reason (and this was stated to me by various local authorities at an industry conference that I attended in Solihull last week) is primarily to ensure that they abide by Item 11 of the Taking Control of Goods National Standards 2014 which states as follows:

 

 

Creditors Responsibilities:

 

Item 11:

 

Creditors agreeing the suspension of a warrant or making direct payment arrangements with debtors must give appropriate notification to and

should pay appropriate fees due to the enforcement agent for the work they have undertaken.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf

 

It is clear that you have been juggling various debts for a while and I am pleased to hear that you are going to attend the council offices today to try to sort this matter out.

 

Your need to ask them the following:

 

How much is Liability Order for that is subject to an Attachment of Earnings

 

How much has been deducted so far?

 

How much is outstanding against the other Liability Orders?

 

What bailiff fees have been applied to EACH of these two accounts?

 

Whether both accounts are with bailiffs?

 

Lastly, you should ask the council if they would consider putting a second Attachment of Earnings Order in place for one of the two remaining Liability Orders.

 

PS: Please make sure that you take the completed Income & Expenditure form with you this morning.

 

Please post back after you have been to the council.

[Bailiff Advice]

Thanks, dx

 

Apparently they have 3 orders, and one of them is the AOE.

 

My only excuse for being so useless is that at the time I was going through treatment for bowel cancer (all OK now but still being seen regularly by hospital), and my son was living with me, who has mental health issues.

 

I am pleased to hear that you have recovered from your bowel cancer treatment. If it was the case that you are currently undergoing treatment for cancer (which thankfully is not the case) then this would almost certainly be considered as grounds for vulnerability.

 

The understand 'vulnerability' and bailiff enforcement in more detail, please read the following guide that I drafted for the forum:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?456344-Bailiff-enforcement-All-about-Vulnerability

[Sparks_]

If you are on a low income have you checked if you are entitled to help with your council tax? If you are renting you maybe entitled to help with housing costs as well

[Marianne7]

Thanks for all the help.

 

Council Tax office don't see people in person any more - you have to do it over the phone. I've completed the form and will scan and send to them shortly. Have also told bailiff I am doing this. I've been meticulous (in this at least) to tell both parties what I am doing and when, and asked them both to make a note of my calls.

 

Will come back when have some details after today.

 

Thanks to all again.

[Marianne7]

On October 6th I scanned on the Income/Outgoings form and returned it to the lady at the council. I have heard nothing from them since, but I assumed this was intended to work out how much I could afford in repayments, monthly.

 

Yesterday I got a call from a bailiff who said he was outside my house - I was t work. I tried to explain that I was waiting to hear from the council (or anyone, in response to the form) but he just kept saying that I owe the money and JBW have heard nothing from the council.

 

Today I have received two texts from them, an email and a hand delivered letter waiting for me when I got home, so it means he has come to the house again.

 

This person knew nothing about the £537 paid on October 5th and didn't seem interested.

 

All these texts, emails, phone calls and letters within 24 hours is beginning to feel like harassment.

I feel I have done everything they asked me.

 

Tomorrow I am going to the council offices, even though they say they don't see people any more, it has to be done by phone, because I'm beginning to feel very scared.

 

Can they really want more money just over two weeks since I paid £537?

I'm trying to work (which I need to do

- I work on the hospital bank and if I don't work I don't get paid) and it's very hard to deal with all this.

 

Any more advice?

 

Just to add further: the letter delivered today says something along the lines that I have not responded to them, but I have

- I have had several conversations with them and made a large payment, all as documented in my posts above. I feel this is getting a bit Kafkaesque.

[Guest]

caducea

maybe n/a (the guys will correct if so), but have you been speaking/communicating with yr actual local c'tax office, or the central call centre (capita).

if the latter, try speaking to yr actual council rather than the outsourced bit.

[Marianne7]

Yes, I have been speaking with my council

- have exchanged several emails with a named person there.

 

 

I emailed her today to tell her what has been happening.

 

 

Unfortunately perhaps I should have nagged them about responding to what they found on my income form, but I just thought "it's not so long, maybe this takes a bit of time...".

 

 

I also felt reasonably "protected" having paid what for me is a huge lump only 2 weeks ago.

[dx100uk]

is the email a .gov address

[Marianne7]

Yes it is. My local council: .gov.uk

[Bailiff Advice]

 

Unfortunately perhaps I should have nagged them about responding to what they found on my income form, but I just thought "it's not so long, maybe this takes a bit of time...".

 

I also felt reasonably "protected" having paid what for me is a huge lump only 2 weeks ago.

 

Almost certainly you need to be speaking with the council and that has to be done today. I appreciate that you had made a large payment 2 weeks ago but the fact remains, the amount paid has not cleared the Liability Order (hence the further contact).

 

Please post back once you have spoken with the council.

[Marianne7]

Today has been a rather up & down day.

 

Having received the red-bordered letter through the door yesterday,

this morning, on my way to council offices, I called the person who signed it, one Steve

- turns out this was the one who rang me two days ago.

 

He started telling me that I had complicated matters by getting the council involved and I shouldn't have done that.

I told him I had only got them involved because I rang them to check up about what the first bailiff had told me (about the council not happy to accept £537 and wanting £1000).

 

He said that's nothing to do with me, we are all freelance.

I said that they all worked under the umbrella of JBW, and so it was to do with him.

 

He kept on telling me off,

saying this had to be worked out between me and him,

that the council were no longer involved.

 

I pointed out that it was the council who had sent me the form to fill in, in order to work out a payment scheme.

Then as I was getting on the bus, I said I couldn't talk anymore, but would speak to him later.

 

Couldn't see anyone at the council face to face but talked on their internal phone which worked very well

- they went through my form with me and we agreed a payment scheme £120 per month to start next month.

 

She said they couldn't take the debt back, but that JBW would have to accept what she told them.

She was very helpful and I felt much better for that.

She also confirmed this included all 3 orders.

 

A little while later I got a text form JBW, confirming the payment scheme, 13 months with an extra payment at the end of about £29.

 

Just before I left work I called the Steve again, out of politeness (I shouldn't have bothered) as I thought it was all settled well.

He was surprised and finished the call.

 

He called me back less than 5 minutes later saying that JBW had received no such instructions from the council;

I told him about the text

- they wouldn't have sent a text, he said.

 

Very frightening, shouting at me, not exactly calling me a liar but clearly not believing me;

telling me that I had handled it all wrongly,

that I was only supposed to talk to him about this debt,

I shouldn't have got the council involved, etc.

I'm afraid I hung up on him.

 

I immediately emailed the lady at the council (I have her name) and told her about this most recent phone call.

Unfortunately this was nearly 5 p.m. and she may have gone home but I hope to get a reply tomorrow.

 

I am confident in what she told me (and I have the text from JBW on my phone) but I don't trust the bailiff

- he is clearly rattled about all this and I fear he may come round again making threats at my door, which I really don't want.

 

They really don't like it if one stands up to them and they try to blind one with semi-legalise

- I imagine that by working this out with the council myself I have done him out of some sort of commission? Tough.

 

My experience of the two men I have dealt with from JBW is that they are bullies and the fact that they seem to be freelance bullies is even scarier.

 

I will come back with any further developments but for now, thanks to all for your help and support.