Hhmmmm.....Very Interesting

[skbuncks]

Hi All

 

Have been meaning to look into this little forum for quite some time but never managed to get round to it. I have had various PPI agreements over the years and must have paid out a fortune in premiums.

 

To start heres a summary of my PPI history to date (more to clarify in my head what info I need to dig up than anyhting else)

 

Lloyds TSB Graduate loan one £3500 + PPI. Start date around Sept 1999. Was a contractor at the time of taking out this loan so didnt actually qualify for cover as I found out much to my dismay around 9 months later. Bank staff were aware of my employment status.

 

Lloyds TSB Graduate loan two + PPI - a refinance of first loan. Not given option to remove PPI. Only had this loan before refinancing into graduate loan 3.

 

Lloyds TSB Graduate loan three £6500 + PPI (used to pay off previous loan). Start date unknown. Was informed I had to have PPI due to poor credit rating. Tried to cancel the PPI a coulpe of years into the loan but was refused, no idea of the date.

 

Lloyds TSB Loan £8000 + PPI.Start date unknown. Was informed I had to have PPI due to poor credit rating. Tried to cancel the PPI but was refused, no idea of the date.

 

Lloyds TSB loan £9000 no PPI finally got wise (used to pay off previous loans). Start date May 2005. Was finally getting sick of the PPI so paid off old loan.

 

Egg Visa £4100 limit + PPI - no idea when I got this 2001?? paid off now with egg loan

Egg MasterCard £4100 limit + PPI - no idea when I got this 2001?? paid off now with egg loan. Both cards automatically came with PPI. I did manage to cancel the policies but only after paying out hyundreds of pounds first.

Egg Loan £7000 not sure if had PPI or not (Used to pay off cards)

 

To summarise I need dates and account numbers for each loan. Amounts for the PPI cover. S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request for each to request statements and copies of loan agreements

 

Question - is there a template S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) available for PPI

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Thanks to online banking I now have the loan numbers for lloyds loan 3, 4 and 5. Just the graduate loans one and two outstanding from lloyds. Also have the credit card numbers from Egg and the loan account number from egg.

 

Have a sneaky feeling I had PPI on my NatWest Visa and MasterCard, these were paid off around 7 years ago but know for a fact PPI would never have been explained to me. Still bit of a long shot I think going after them, just finding out the account numbers could take a massive amount of effort

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Cheers Lookin, my SAR requests are unfortunately gunna have to wait till pay day as am quite quite skint. Gives me a bit more time to read up on the subject though I suppose. On the bright side i've found the account number 1 of my natwest cards that I defaulted on - its on a letter from a DCA. Am also gunna obtain my credit report as this may have details of other cards (store cards, visa's etc) i've had in the far distant past

 

Early Repayment Charges (ERC)

On at least three of my loan that ive paid off early i was hit with a ERC.

For lloyds these amounted to 3 months interest of the closing balance. I now believe these to be a penalty charges, and thus unenforceable as per bank charges, and I want them back. And will fight tooth and claw to get them.

 

Handy Hint for Avoiding ERC's

For the last lloyds loan I paid off I was more aware of these ERC's so what i did was to pay off 95 % of my balance one month and then the following month request a settlement figure, as the balance of the loan was now really small the ERC of 3 months interest of the closing balance was also very small so ended up saving myself a fair wad of cash.

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Am now ready to send off my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request. Have pulled a few things together and am gunna send them this, its a bit OTT but may as well get as much info they have on me as possible.

 

Dear Penny Berryman,

 

Re: Subject Access Request, Data Protection Act 1984 / 1998

 

Former Addresses:

 

Current Address:

 

Loan Account Numbers inclusive but not limited to:

 

I understand that you currently hold details of my personal and financial information within your internal record systems with regards to personal loans.

 

I would be grateful if you would provide the following for ALL personal loans I have held with your organization:

• Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist or have existed between myself and your organisation, including true copies of any documents you hold in support of same.
  
• A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to ALL my loan accounts with your organisation.

• Copies of all documents which include any of my personal information including copies of any contracts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information.

• Full copies or transcripts of any computer logs or database records kept in relation to myself or in relation to my financial or personal information.

• Full copies of any correspondence in postal, email or any other format which you have entered into with any individual, organisation or third party which contains my personal or financial information, or which pertains to myself.

• Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a declaration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.

• Full hard copy print outs of any of my personal or financial information held in a digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other storage devices / locations.

I enclose a cheque in the sum of £10 to cover your fee. If you are unable to deal with this request, you should immediately forward it to the person within your organisation responsible for Data Protection. If you do not provide the information requested within the given time limits (40 days) under current Law, a complaint will be registered with the Information Commissioners Office and the Office of Fair Trading.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in the first instance.

 

Lets see what they send me

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Hi Sue,

Ive only submitted my SAR for my loans with lloyds so far (am still waitng but have no response whatsoever) but am going to get the ball rolling with egg in the new year, I too have a nice £15K loan with egg, which fortunately doesnt have PPI on it.

My egg card PPI ended up costing a fortune cos I had two of them (visa and mastercard) each up to there limits of £4100, I cant remember exactly but have a feeling the PPI was costing me around £40 to £50 a month on EACH card. Think it might have been a pound for every £100 on the card. Still the SAR will sort out exactly how much it all came too.

To be honest I dont think it will be easy getting our cash back but im going to give it a damn good go. There is also of course the niggling worry that egg will retaliate and demand immediate repayment of loans but I say let em try it and i'll see them in court.

Anyway keep us informed on your progress

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Theres always hope that they intend to defend court action and decide not to as its not good for them ect...

 

Anyway thats my fear of taking my case further that A and L ask for my loan back

 

Does anyone know if they can do???

 

To be honset I dont know whether or not they can do it however I think they would find it very hard to defend such retaliatory actions in a court of law.

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Update:

 

Well I asked for it and lloyds have certainly gave it to me. In response to my rather detailed S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) (post 5) they have sent me a nice liitle bundle of information. Comes to a wad of A4 printouts 3 inches thick. Is gunna take me ages to plow through it all. On a quick glance everything asked for seems to be there, everything from loan agreements to credit scoring info but not got time to go through it until after chrimbo. There are even copies of my prelim and LBA for claiming back unlawful charges

 

skb

[skbuncks]

I Have now gone through the info supplied which is summarised below. There is unfortunately no info on my first loan which was opened in 1999 and closed in 2001. As the close date is within the 6 year limit for a SAR then i'll be raising a complaint if they dont produce it.

 

Term 60 months Graduate loan 1.

Loan amount £3500 - monthly repayment £70.76

Insurance amount £709.07 - monthly repayment £14.34

Total loan £4209.7

Total monthly payment - £85.10

APR - 7.8 %

Term 60 months

Start 16/11/99. Payment date 8th of month

Missed payments on loan due to unemployment 10/7/00 and 9/8/00

Payments made (excluding final payment) - 18ish

Final payment £3090 on 1/10/01??

Insurance rebate – Believe I did get one

Insurance to claim back – 18 x £14.34 = £272.46 + rebate of ???

Graduate loan 2 - £2910 in cash and £3090 to repay graduate loan 1.

Loan amount £6000 - monthly repayment £120.4

Insurance amount £1215.53 - monthly repayment £24.39

Total loan £7215.53

Total monthly payment £144.79

APR - 7.8 %

Term 60 months

Start date - 1/10/01. Payment date 8th of month.

Payments made (excluding final payment) - 6

Final payment of £6619.23 on 10/4/02

Insurance rebate - Believe I did get one. I calculate it should have been £1115

Insurance to claim back – 6 x £24.39 = £146.34 + rebate of £1115 if not already received

Graduate loan 3 - To repay existing debts of £8461.70 (loan 2 £6619.23 and OD £1842.47) + cash of £38.30

Loan amount £8500 - monthly repayment £170.57.

Insurance amount £1722.03 - monthly repayment £34.56

Total loan £10222.03

Total monthly payment £205.13

APR - 7.8 %

Start date - 10/04/02. Payment date 8th of month.

Payments made (excluding final payment) - 39

Final payment - £4061.91 on £29/6/05

Early settlement fee - £52.17

Insurance rebate - No evidence for such from bank statements. I calculate that rebate should have been around £711.

Insurance to claim back – 39 x £34.56 = £1347.84 + rebate of £711 if not already received

Select loan

Loan amount £6500 - monthly repayment £150.78

Insurance amount £1527.3 - monthly repayment £35.55

Total loan £8027.30

Total monthly payment £186.83

APR - 14.9 %

Term 60 months

Start date - 9/01/04. Payment date 8th of month.

Payments made (excluding final payment and additional payments) - 15

Additional payments payments - £4500 28/5/04; £780 10/1/05;

Final payment - £636.6 11/4/05

Rebate – Received £1103.31 (I calculate it at £1301.63).

Early settlement fee - £14.33

Insurance to claim back – 15 x £35.55 = £497.70

[skbuncks]

Brief summary

 

Graduate loan 1 – Claiming £274.46. Require bank statements to determine whether rebate of £527 was received.

Graduate loan 2 – Claiming £146.34. Require bank statements to determine whether rebate of £1115 was received

Graduate loan 3 – Claiming £1347.84 + £711 (rebate as no evidence this was received from bank statements). Early settlement fee of £52.17

Select Loan – Claiming £497.70 plus difference between what rebate was and what it should have been - £198. Early settlement fee £14.33

Total £4883.84 which may reduce to £2332 if evidence of rebates is found.

[skbuncks]

Heres a copy of the front sheet of one of my contracts. They're all pretty much the same

 

[skbuncks]

And links to the whole contract

 

[skbuncks]

The spreadsheets i used for my calculations can be found here

 

PPI for posting web.xls

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Questions - The burden of proof

 

My first graduate loan PPI was obviously missold as it was not fit for purpose - ie I was on a temporary working contract and when I lost my job and tried to claim I was told I they wouldnt pay out because temporary contracts were not covered by the insurance. On taking out the loan the bank was aware that I was on a temporary contract.

For subsequent loans I was told no PPI then no loan - how do I prove this as its my word against theirs??????

 

Question - Contracts

 

Does the loan contract have to state the total amount payable under the agreement i.e the loan + PPI + interest???

 

skb

[skbuncks]

if you can prove taht your contracts were tempoarary at this point I imagine that is all the proof that you will need.

Cite your previous experience of trying to claim whilst on a temp contract (why would you want to do that again?)

 

For the first loan your right I think that is all the proof I need (getting the proof maybe problematic however). For all subsequent loans however I was in full time employment.

[skbuncks]

There was a rule brought in , I think it was from Feb 2005 that any Agreement has to Include a total charge for credit. As far as I can remember this was introduced by the FSA..I will have a look later when I have more time. I have it on file somewhere..lol

 

And it has to be laid out ..along these lines

 

Loan amount Interest Amount Total

 

PPI Cost Interest Amount Total

 

Hi Reidnet. Were there any rules regarding the above in effect pre 2005, as all my loans were taken out before then

[skbuncks]

hi iv been unable to upload the spreadsheet you mentioned any alternative

ive got a couple of ppi claims to make on personall loans

one still in force, a single premium insurance loan with halifax, and another monthly premium ppi with Abbey

 

thanks boxers 64

 

Hi Boxer, Have just tried it and the download still works so I would give it another go.

Its not really a template though and more of a "This is how i did it" type thing. It can be modified for anyones claim if you play around with a bit but is quite time consuming in the amount of data you have to enter. Im sure there are better ways to do it but the calculations involved are far beyond my simple mind to grasp

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Whether your covered whilst on a temporary contract will depend upon the wording in the terms and conditions of the PPI policy. Certainly in the case of lloyds PPI you are not covered

 

Is it just me or do the banks not send you statements once in a while to let you know how much you've paid, etc.?? I have never had anything from them since the day I took the loan out!!

 

LLoyds have never sent out statements, but you can obtain a current balance of the loan via their internet banking, am unsure if this is something RBOS offer

[skbuncks]

Update:

 

Am still chasing lloyds up for missing info about first graduate loan. They finally got back to me with some fob off about needing more info from me in order to chase it up, id already given them the dam loan account number twice. So sent them what they need and am wating again. God but they annoy me

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Anyone know who underwrote lloyds insurance from 1999 to the present. Am going to send them a SAR for all details they hold too, will be interesting to see just how much the insurance actually cost

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Finally I have some of the missing data I requested in nvember last year, namely the rebate amounts from each loan. Lloyds are however unable to supply the loan agreement from the first loan as its from too long ago. Strange as I thought they had to keep stuff for six years and loan wasnt closed until April 2002. Still they have said in their latest letter that they will be supplying a transaction list for the loan shortly. Im gunna ive them a week then proceed anyway cos im sick of waiting.

 

I have know been able to finalise the figures for grad loans 2 and 3 and select loan 1.

Alos looking back over my employment history I was in temporary employment (six month contracts) up until July 2002 so grad loan 1,2 and 3 PPI policies were mis-sold on the basis that my employment circumstance immediately excluded me from cover.

The Lloyds TSB Loan Protection Policy Document has this to say on exclusions to the Policy:

You will not be covered for any period of unemployment which:

Immediately follows a period of casual or temporary work, or

Is normal in your line of work, or

Results from the end of a fixed term contract, except where you have:

· Worked continuously for the same employer for at least 24 months, or

· Been on a contract for at least 12 months and had that contract renewed at least once

 

[skbuncks]

Tables

 

 

 

 

[skbuncks]

Some explanatory notes on the above tables.

 

1) I calculated interest seperately and on a daily basis for the loan amount and the PPI amount.

To convert from APR to daily interest I used the following formula:

 

Daily rate = ((1+APR)^(1/365))-1

 

2) Outstanding Balance - This is what I calculate the outstanding balance to have been for loan and PPI when the loan was paid off. Settlement figure include the early settle fee which is subtracted 3 lines below. The variance is the difference between my figures and banks figures. An exact match would be very hard to come by

 

ie loan 3: loan balance of £3500.48 + PPI balance of £709 = Total £4209.5

loan 3: settlement figure of £ 4061.91 which is £4009.74 minus the ERC. If you add the rebate to this (which for loan 3 was paid into the loan to reduce the settlement amount) this equals £4215.18.

£4218.18 - £4209.48 = £4.8 so theres a difference of £4.8 between my calcs and theres over a 39 month period.

 

3) Insurance to claim back is calculated as follows (again for loan 3)

Total insurance premiums paid + difference between rebate and settlement figure for the PPI.

 

ie loan 3: £1347.84 + (709-205.44) = £1851.40

 

4) The calcs for select loan are a bit more complicated as they continued to take payments for several months after the loan was actually paid off. They assured me at the time that they would balance the books correctly but, well, they didnt.

 

As a matter of interest lloyds base their rebates (roughly) on the following table:

 

Months into loan 0 percentage rebate 100

Months into loan 12 percentage rebate 65

Months into loan 18 percentage rebate 49

Months into loan 24 percentage rebate 34

Months into loan 36 percentage rebate 14

Months into loan 48 percentage rebate 4

Months into loan 60 percentage rebate 0

 

 

Hope this is clear lol

 

Current total to claim = £2943.03 and still to add in grad loan 1

 

skb

 

 

[skbuncks]

Graduate loan 1 comes to £444.49 to claim.

 

Grand total = £3387.52

[skbuncks]

As the issues surrounding the miss-selling for the garduate loans are different from for the select loan im keeping them separate.

 

Prelim for Graduate loans sent recorded delivery on monday for grand total of £2595.75. I am a bit worried though since I live in sheffield and the letter was posted by my GF at a post office in parkgate, rotherham on monday morning. Several hours later said post office, along with most of yorkshire, was several feet underwater and tracking system is showing item as yet undelivered. Fingers crossed my prelim is not another victim of the great yorkshire flood.

 

skb

[skbuncks]

Copy of prelim

 

Date: 16th June 2007.

Dear Sir/Madam.

Re: Complaint and request for return of Payment Protection Insurance premium

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx

Graduate Loan Account Number: xxxxxxxx

I am writing to request the repayment of monies paid by myself to LloydsTSB for PPI policies on a number of loans which were mis-sold (loan account numbers as above detailed above).

At the time of undertaking the credit agreements, the agent acting on your behalf misled me into procuring Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) as part of the overall credit bargain.

The Insurance Policies sold to myself were not defined nor explained and were not "optional" as laid out in the said agreements, as I was informed that the Insurance was part and parcel of having a loan and that without it the loan would not be approved.

Your agents misrepresented the fact that the insurance was compulsory and due to inexperience in financial matters at the time this was taken at face value.; I felt that there was no choice but to agree to the credit bargain.

I was employed on a temporary basis at the time of taking out each of the loans and therefore not eligible for any payments from the PPI in the event of cessation of employment or illness. My situation was known to the person who sold me the loans, however he/she did not point out that I would never be able to benefit from the insurance sold as my employment circumstances immediately excluded me from cover.

I consider that your representations that the PPI plan was required, reasonable and suitable to my needs were deceptive, and as such I was deceived into agreeing to pay the insurance.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves with reasonable care and skill and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

Full details of my reasoning behind why I believe the PPI policies were mis-sold are attached to this letter.

You will be aware of the recent government intervention on this matter informing the FSA and OFT to make significant changes to the manner in which personal payment protection is sold. In particular your attention is drawn to FSA principles for business:

Principle 1: Integrity: A firm must conduct its business with integrity.

Principle 2: Skill, care and diligence: A firm must conduct its business with due skill, care and diligence.

Principle 3: Management and control: A firm must take reasonable care to organise and control its affairs responsibly and effectively, with adequate risk management systems.

Principle 5: Market conduct: A firm must observe proper standards of market conduct.

Principle 6: Customers' interests: A firm must pay due regard to the interests of its customers and treat them fairly.

Principle 7: Communications with clients: A firm must pay due regard to the information needs of its clients, and communicate information to them in a way which is clear, fair and not misleading.

Principle 9: Customers: relationships of trust: A firm must take reasonable care to ensure the suitability of its advice and discretionary decisions for any customer who is entitled to rely upon its judgment.

In view of the way I was mis-sold this very expensive insurance, I am hereby giving you 14 days notice to reply positively or refund the whole of each premium paid, including interest, forthwith.

What I require

 

Partial rebates were received upon early repayment of the loans. I now require full repayment of the outstanding paid premiums as detailed below:

Graduate Loan Account Number 30975100738128: £429.11

Graduate Loan Account Number 100009943673: £344.91

Graduate Loan Account Number 100016734138: £1821.73

Total: £2595.75

In order to calculate the amount of PPI paid on each loan and the amount received in any rebate I made an SAR request on 19th November 2006 for the relevant information. In direct breach of Data Protection Act principles and despite several follow up letters it was not until the 12th June 2007 that all information had been received. A full breakdown of each loan is attached together with my methodology of calculating the PPI which is reclaimed here. If you wish to dispute the amounts then you must do so by supplying evidence to the contrary.

My targets to resolve this matter

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets or proceed to court.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting unconditionally my request for £2595.75 repayment and letting me know a date by which I will receive this.

 

For the avoidance of doubt if in 14 days you have not replied positively or supplied a full refund, I will issue a Letter Before Action before commencing a claim against you with the county courts. Additionally I will immediately lodge a complaint against you with the Financial Services Authority.

 

After that there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the deadline.

 

I trust that will not be necessary and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely

Gary