PCN in my own parking space

[reevery]

Hi

 

On 8th December I moved into a flat in Brentford. The lease for the flat includes reference to two specific parking spaces, but it makes no direct reference to Parking Control Management, who patrol the car park.

 

On 16th December, in the post, I receive a welcome back from the Management Company. In it, it mentions how to obtain a parking permit, and I emailed the MC and asked for a form.

 

At around 0730 on 17th December, I received a PCN whilst parked in one of the specific spaces. There are signs in the car park, but I had not read them; I had not understood that there was a requirement for a parking permit until the letter received the previous evening, it is not mentioned in the deeds (only what might appear to be a reference to regulations). I did not believe I was in any way contravening any rights.

 

Later in the day, I received the form from the MC, completed and returned it the same day. Permits have now arrived and are affixed.

 

I (perhaps too hastily) appealed the ticket, on the grounds that I own the parking space and am entitled to park there. I forget the exact wording.

 

In a letter dated 21st December, the appeal was rejected as per the attachment, but in summary, regardless of my ownership position, I "parked in a manner whereby agreed to pay a charge".

 

At this point, before deciding whether to appeal further with the IAS, I'd like to understand my position. I've got the following questions:

1) Who OWNS the space, or has legal right to own it? Me or the MC or the freeholder? I understand this is not black and white, but I don't know where the line between it being in the deeds and therefore my not having granted any permission for PCM to issue tickets, or otherwise.

2) Am I too late to pursue getting the ticket cancelled now that I have already corresponded?

3) If I want to lodge an appeal with the IAS, do I have to do so entirely within the 21 days since the letter date, or can I notify them if it is not complete in that time?

 

Any suggestions how to proceed? I'm happy to dig through the lease documents, but it's some 44 pages.

 

Thanks, Matthew

[renegadeimp]

Your lease trumps any right the PPC may have.

 

tell them as much, and to jog on, or you will take further action for harassment.

 

Also, the PPC will always reject your appeal. They wouldnt make any cash if they accepted it.

[reallymadwoman]

Also, if the 'invoice' was attached to your vehicle, they entered onto your property to attach it and so were trespassing.

 

We constantly have this same issue with ParkingEye, they consistently reject appeals made on the grounds that we were parked/our visitor was parked on our own property but despite being very well known for issuing court claims, in 6 years and after over 200 such invoices, they have never once taken me or any of my guests to court despite being practically begged to do it so we can invite the press along to see them get thrashed.

 

Write back to them pointing out that you were parked in your own space, so will not enter into any further correspondence with them, then ignore all further correspondence unless it comes from a court. In the unlikely event of the latter, come back for help tearing them apart.

[reevery]

Thank you. So one additional question then. Do I engage with The IAS, or just write back to PCM?

[JoeyJoeC]

Does this mean they don't even need a permit?

[renegadeimp]

IAS are the parking company. They didnt like the fact that popla played by the rules, so they made their own so they can ignore the law.

 

Just tell the PPC straight that the parking space is part of your property and lease, and if they want to take legal action, you will be ready with lease in hand, and a counter claim, as they will 100% lose.

[havinastella]

Read this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

[reevery]

Thanks all. I've read that thread, and I am going to reply as advised above. My main outstanding concern is that they reply and advise that there is a clause in the lease which permits all of this (how, I don't know). I suppose at this stage I can take that risk...

[havinastella]

Your lease trumps any crap they spout. End off.

[ericsbrother]

YOU didnt sign a contract with the parking co so they dont have a contract. Simples.

Basically they have an agreement with a third party who cannot dictate anything to you. All of this is supposedly an administrative convenience to deter joew Soap driving in off the street and parking in your space. You dont need a permit to use your own property. problem is they dont know or care who you are as long as you are dumb enough to pay them based on their ticket slapped on your car. they will say that you awe because they are too stupid or greedy to view anything properly until the point they get a hammering in court for trespass and harassment.

I would suggest you ignore them for the moment and when they contact you again as keeper of the vehicle you send a letter saying you OWN the space you are parked in and they are trespassing every time they touch your car and you will sue them if they dont desist.

By the way, you cannot park in a manner that agrees to pay them a charge because they dotn have any right to form a contract as they are trespassing so theirs is a circular argument that will get them nowhere in the long run.

I suspect you may start getting letters from one of the tame debts collectors. Gladstones and Miah and co are the favourites of IAS members but even though they are solicitors they are acting in the capacity as an unlicenced debt collecting agency so can be ignored. However, if you do get a letter I would suggest that a short I own the land your clients have trespassed on and they can get lost or suffer the consequences will be advisable as this lets them know your position and creates a paper trail so they cant say they werent warned.

[reevery]

Hi. Thought a quick update might be in order, mainly because I'd appreciate a little confirmation of a niggle I have.

 

I wrote back with the advice and they have today responded (as expected) that they believe they're in the right.

 

The niggle I have is, let's say there is a clause in the management company lease I signed that states they do have the power. Where does it have to be? In the clause itself? If for instance the lease says I agree to regulations, but isn't specific, and the regulations state they do, is that too vague?

 

Yesterday, though, I had an electrician visit and in the 30 minutes he was here he got a ticket. I've advised him not to make contact but I have a copy of his ticket. As I've now involuntarily got a third party involved, I just want to be a little more assured. Is it worth having someone run through my paperwork or am I on pretty safe grounds?

[caro]

Don't bother wasting any more time worrying or playing letter tennis with these numpties. As you've been told, they have no chance in court and they know it. Don't give it another thought!!

Edited January 8, 2016 by caro

[ericsbrother]

you cannot sign your rights away and the management co dont have any rights themselves to force you or anyone else to agree to anything. In the case of the electrician it is a little more complicated as they can be held to a contract but again, it is unlikely that the landowner has anything to do with this and the contract the parking co have is worthless.