Passed enhanced CRB check but failed a PNC check by employer?

[Andy111]

To be honest I'm a little unsure on if this issue is beyond the scope of this group by want to ask for advice anyway.

 

I've been working for a security company for a number of months that deal with various events all over the place etc. Done countless jobs for them and never any issues regarding my work, ability or conduct. Only I was supposed to be working a particular event for a few days. Nothing unique or special about the event in the slightest and I've worked a number of similar such events and countless 1 off jobs that's similar.

 

But the company in question, without notice has cancelled this upcoming event work (and ALL upcoming work\jobs into December I had booked with them) citing a failed police PNC check they claim they do for all these events that directly instructs the company not to let me work this event!. The company has now placed me on "special leave" and cancelled this particular event work and all upcoming work.

 

Now working in security and for this particular company I was recruited as an SIA qualified worker I fully understand they would have to carry out extensive legal checks, more so in dealing with events that involves constantly dealing with the general public in various situations. For the interview I had to provide an enhanced CRB certificate (which actually came as part of my SIA training), which was completely clean and clear of anything, my SIA badge\licence (which in itself would require extensive background checks to grant I'd have thought), training & qualification certificates etc.

 

Everything was fine until this week never a problem or any issues working any event or job. Then I get this email putting me on special leave and removing me from all work citing a failed police PNC check that the company did for this event. So I call the company to try and find out what the hell is going on as ive bills to pay and a family to support and I know full well there is no legal issues preventing me working and I have a 100% completely clean record and background. This is where things start to get somewhat deceptive and defensive from the company I start to feel.

 

They tell me for all such events like this the company does police PNC checks on all staff members that work these such events. Really I ask?, I've worked at least 3 other identical\similar events and if they do these PNC checks each time for all staff then clearly I've passed them, at least 3 previous apparent employer requested PNC checks so there must be an error I point out. I ask what's unique about this event that would cause a failed police PNC check?.

 

Nothing unique they tell me except that it's the events project manager who requests these police PNC Checks on all staff working the event and that the Human Resources person I spoke to claims the project manager (in charge of the event) had received an email back from the police in response to the police PNC check instructing the company that I'm not allowed to work at this event.

 

I plead with the company to accept this must be an error and to double check with the events project manager as they done their own checks when they first interviewed me, have a copy of my completly clean enhanced CRB certificate, had made apparent previous police PNC checks, the last (if a genuine claim) would have been less than 2 weeks previous to this claimed failed PNC check and if anything was going to flag up it would have done so a long time ago. The company dont seem to want to know or help much at all leaving me in limbo.

 

Getting nowhere with the company I visit the police and explain it all to them in the hope they can at least check my name on there PNC. But they can't seem to help or offer a solution either. Except to say I'd have to apply for a police PNC check myself which would take several weeks. But they did suggest the only thing, due to a clean enhanched CRB certificate that could cause issues is anything post CRB dated, which there is nothing.

 

Any advice as I'm lost on this and get the feeling the company is lying about something?. As surely they can't make multiple PNC checks if at all without written concent?. And surely a police PNC check would return a list of issues than simply give an instruction not to let me work this event?. Something don't sound right here about all this.

[citizenB]

I will try and find someone to help you.

[Emmzzi]

fixing this will take time. You will need to apply for the data, and then see if it is correct

 

https://www.acro.police.uk/subject_access.aspx

[Andy111]

Thanks for that link, going to apply but like you say, its going to take time. But at least at some point it will clear things up as I know it will.

 

But something about the way the company are dealing with the situation and what they are saying just don't ring true. As firstly under the DPA, why would a project (event) manager working for the company apply for a police PNC check to clear staff working an event rather than the companies human resources or personal department?.

 

What would a police PNC check response even give or say weather a clean or dirty record?. As the companies human resources person says they have not seen the email sent from the police themselves, but that the companies event manager on site had contacted the human resources department to say that they had received an email following a requested police PNC check and that the email simply instructs the company not to allow me to work at the event citing a failed PNC clearance check and that the email details nothing or any reason for such a claimed email.

 

As said in my original post, surely a requested employer police PNC check, if anything shows up, would simply list those issues or matters for the company to raise with me than instead give a rather precise instruction to the company to refuse me to work yet give no reason or detail?.

 

The company even with a clean record of numerous checks seems to care nothing for this claimed failed PNC check to want to double check the issue and chase it up themselves for which they could assumingly do in a fraction of the several weeks it will take me to sort.

[obiter dictum]

Do they not have to consult you first and get a signed declaration to do this CRB check.

 

I am at a loss as PNC is police national computer where the CRB checks come from

 

What authority did they have to do this check without your prior consent

[Andy111]

Do they not have to consult you first and get a signed declaration to do this CRB check.

 

I am at a loss as PNC is police national computer where the CRB checks come from

 

What authority did they have to do this check without your prior consent

 

This is what I just don't get, they never pre asked me at any point for either written or verbal permission to carry out these multiple police PNC checks. Unless working in security at events that involve working with the general public written permission is not required unless it may have been requested and given during the recruitment process?.

 

But I use the wording employer police PNC checks as that's exactly what the company has claimed I've failed and not a CRB check. For which an enhanced CRB check (for which they have a recent copy) is a deeper check than a PNC check as enhanced CRB also lists local and spent issues right?.

[Emmzzi]

did you sign something when starting employment to allow future checks? that'd be common.

 

you may speculate as you wish... this will tke time. don;t drive yourself mad, try and get some other work to tide you over instead...

[obiter dictum]

All issues will be on the Police National computer, even spent and cautions

[king12345]

Things might have changed, but last time I had to have an enhanced crb check to work with kids, I had to request it and it was posted to me.

I doubt that anyone else can access your police records without your permission.

I would speculate that they booked too many security staff and they're finding a way to offload some.

[Andy111]

Things might have changed, but last time I had to have an enhanced crb check to work with kids, I had to request it and it was posted to me.

I doubt that anyone else can access your police records without your permission.

I would speculate that they booked too many security staff and they're finding a way to offload some.

 

I would speculate something similar, more so knowing the company for several months now despite knowing that many staff will have booked onto the job after myself and they are working the event. Underhanded and disgusting if that does turn out to be the case rather than just being honest and upfront seeing as I've done countless last minute shifts and often worked extra hours for them when they have needed staff. Only they have cancelled all work and not just this event so it would be somewhat extreme if so. So I'll just have to wait and see what the company says when the PNC request comes back clear. For which funny enough they are seemingly refusing to let me see the received email from the police.

[Sidewinder]

funny enough they are seemingly refusing to let me see the received email from the police.

 

They would have no option if you made a SAR for the information!

[king12345]

There's no police email.

No way the police would send an email to a third party telling them not to let you work at the event.

Unless it's an event where you would be left alone with vulnerable people and there's imminent danger of a crime being committed.

Imo they've given you a pack of lies.

Did you upset anyone at work?

Any argument lately?

Sounds like this company just doesn't want you and they're making up stuff.

Sar them and see if this email really exists.

If it does then you will have to complain about the officer making this gross mistake

[Andy111]

There's no police email.

No way the police would send an email to a third party telling them not to let you work at the event.

Unless it's an event where you would be left alone with vulnerable people and there's imminent danger of a crime being committed.

Imo they've given you a pack of lies.

Did you upset anyone at work?

Any argument lately?

Sounds like this company just doesn't want you and they're making up stuff.

Sar them and see if this email really exists.

If it does then you will have to complain about the officer making this gross mistake

 

No issues or disputes with any members of staff since I worked for them. In fact even the previous shifts to this event went OK with no issues as such so nothing makes sense about the companies behaviour all. Unless if unknown to me for no reason that I'm aware of someone working for the company has got it in for me?. But as said, I've a 100% attendance record and took numerous last minute jobs at short notice and unsociable hours (part of the industry I know) and worked later as and when required. If the company had issue with me then they would not ask this of me?.

 

The irony is, the booking department even called me late yesterday asking me if im available to work this weekend, totally unaware I'd been removed from all my bookings and placed on this "special leave" due to an apparent failed PNC check.

 

But yes, why would a third party person, even if an event manger for the company, be the person to either request or receive a direct instruction to a PNC check application than the companies HR or personnel department?. The HR person I spoke to claimed they always do PNC checks for all staff when these such events take place (meaning by this claim alone they will have made at least 3 previous PNC applications if true) and that my name had come back on an email from the police instructing the company not to let me work the event yet seemingly gives no detail or reasons?.

 

Going to call the company later to see what's happening (as they were supposed to get back to me yesterday) and again ask them about this so called police email and if they have seen it themselves yet. And if I get nowhere I'll point out that as I have got hold of the companies event project managers name (its on the events breafing email they sent lol) I'll have no option than to raise the matter as a complaint against them directly and ask where I send a SAR application to in order to see this so called email they say I can't see citing data protection.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Andy111

[king12345]

The data is Your data so they can't say that under dpa they can't disclose the email.

You could attend the local police station and ask to speak to someone in charge (sergeant usually).

Tell them that you're very upset that one of their officers sent an email that now prevents you from working.

I know it didn't come from your local station, but this could trigger a telephone call to the company from the sergeant and maybe they'll speed up the process or even call you and say they made a mistake.

A call from the police usually doesn't go unnoticed.

However it could backfire and they'll decide not to give you any more work at all.

But given that you're at home without work to do, I would explore all avenues if I were you.

[SabreSheep]

Do not tell them you are going to make a SAR, send that to the companies head office. Up to them to send it onto the data controller, send it recorded delivery and keep proof of postage and receipt.

 

The reason for not forwarding them is to prevent them from destroying data.

 

When you make the request, ask for all data held about you including but not limited to all PNC checks.

 

Check CAG library for templates you can adapt.

[ericsbrother]

Any police officer sending out privileged information without authority would be dismissed so it doesnt ring true that an email disclosing details of a PNC check actually exists. Every PNC access is done using the officer's personal code so they use that to double check who has been having a look with their computer login details (this prevents one officer logging in with another's details without it flagging something up).

I would think that if it has happened as they say somehow they have done a check and scrambled the details such as DOB and come up with someone else's records. The SAR will confirm whether they are holding or processing incorrect data but any company that uses improper methods to obtain data will undoubtedly destroy the evidence of both their wrongdoing and their mistakes.

You could complain to the SIA about this and they will investigate the company but dont expect miracles if this is the first time they have come to the SIA's attention as they always like to use gentle persuasion as the first step.

Again a complaint to the police regarding accessing of your data may get you somewhere but I wonder if there is anything that appears on your enhanced CRB that is innocuous but has been misinterpreted as an excuse not to use your services. The events co will not know who you are they just want people with the right certifications so I cannot see that an events manager would bother to spend money investigating the backgrounds of every person employed by a company he is paying to do just that.

Basically someone is lying to you and is too frit to just say that we dont want you any more.

[Andy111]

Thanks ericsbrother, I'm going to visit the other local police station on Monday to get some clarification on employer PNC checks. All I know is based on my own completely clean CRB certificate and so called previous PNC check there is no and can't be any genuine issues relating to myself.

 

I actually called them again yesterday to express my concern and disappointment about having not heard from them in 2 days. Sadly I did mention my rights to the so called police email under a SAR request if not formally requesting to make an SAR yet.

 

Pretty much the same line they are sticking to and still citing not being able to get hold of or having heard back from the project manager on site due to there hectic schedule dealing with the event. This I find somewhat inexcusable I tell them seeing as its both a persons job and there ability to work. I then question the HR person on if as a department they have even seen this so called police email sent to the events project manager by the police in response to a PNC request?. No they tell me, but they are simply acting off the email from the events project manager stating what the email from the police instructed regarding myself and other people's names in the police email and that is to deny me to be able to work this event.

 

So with a completely clean CRB and at least 3 previous PNC checks (by the companies reasoning and explanation) where the most recent 1 being 2 weeks previous all coming back completely clean did they not find this direct instruction somewhat unusual and unexpected to the point where the HR department would at least want to double check with the events project manager and see the police email for themselves before removing me from that event and all work?. No they tell me as the instruction from the police was quite clear and despite trying to contact the events project manager to verify my inclusion on the email and to be able to see the email for themselves they have not yet been able to as the project manager has yet to get back to them they tell me. This is despite by yesterday afternoon the HR department will have had near 2 1/2 days to look into the issue.

 

I then question what's unique about this particular event that could have caused an apparent failed PNC check when I've passed countless previous checks, nothing as such they inform me, except that different events might require different levels of qualifying clearance by the police in order for staff to be able to work such events such as high crime level events, vulnerable people, drug risk events (100% clean on that issue BTW), children (also 100% clean on that). They also went on to state an event where such risks might cause some members of staff problems and cited the very event I worked at 2 weeks previous. Well I worked that event I tell them and so cleared all checks for that and seeing as that was the companies highest risk and check event then if I was cleared to work that event then I should easily have passed a check to work at a far less risk event.

 

They then suggest maybe the check might have flagged up a family members name at the same address?. No I tell them, just me & my partner and she also has a clear and valid CRB herself.

 

They go on about how besides that these such police PNC checks never give a reason or list anything against a persons name in order to instruct the company to refuse to work an event. But that the company sends off a list of names of all staff signing up to work these such events to the police, tells the police what the event is and lists staff roles etc and then asks the police if these staff members can be checked (PNC) and cleared to work the event. And that my name was included in a return police email to the events project manager to refuse me clearance to work at the event.

 

Basically I now have to wait a few days until the event has finished in the expectation and hope that they can speak to this mysteriously elusive event project manager. But like hell am I going away and 100% know the police PNC check I'm doing myself will come back 100% clean.

[BazzaS]

Thanks ericsbrother, I'm going to visit the other local police station on Monday to get some clarification on employer PNC checks. All I know is based on my own completely clean CRB certificate and so called previous PNC check there is no and can't be any genuine issues relating to myself.

 

I actually called them again yesterday to express my concern and disappointment about having not heard from them in 2 days. Sadly I did mention my rights to the so called police email under a SAR request if not formally requesting to make an SAR yet.

 

Pretty much the same line they are sticking to and still citing not being able to get hold of or having heard back from the project manager on site due to there hectic schedule dealing with the event. This I find somewhat inexcusable I tell them seeing as its both a persons job and there ability to work. I then question the HR person on if as a department they have even seen this so called police email sent to the events project manager by the police in response to a PNC request?. No they tell me, but they are simply acting off the email from the events project manager stating what the email from the police instructed regarding myself and other people's names in the police email and that is to deny me to be able to work this event.

 

So with a completely clean CRB and at least 3 previous PNC checks (by the companies reasoning and explanation) where the most recent 1 being 2 weeks previous all coming back completely clean did they not find this direct instruction somewhat unusual and unexpected to the point where the HR department would at least want to double check with the events project manager and see the police email for themselves before removing me from that event and all work?. No they tell me as the instruction from the police was quite clear and despite trying to contact the events project manager to verify my inclusion on the email and to be able to see the email for themselves they have not yet been able to as the project manager has yet to get back to them they tell me. This is despite by yesterday afternoon the HR department will have had near 2 1/2 days to look into the issue.

 

I then question what's unique about this particular event that could have caused an apparent failed PNC check when I've passed countless previous checks, nothing as such they inform me, except that different events might require different levels of qualifying clearance by the police in order for staff to be able to work such events such as high crime level events, vulnerable people, drug risk events (100% clean on that issue BTW), children (also 100% clean on that). They also went on to state an event where such risks might cause some members of staff problems and cited the very event I worked at 2 weeks previous. Well I worked that event I tell them and so cleared all checks for that and seeing as that was the companies highest risk and check event then if I was cleared to work that event then I should easily have passed a check to work at a far less risk event.

 

They then suggest maybe the check might have flagged up a family members name at the same address?. No I tell them, just me & my partner and she also has a clear and valid CRB herself.

 

They go on about how besides that these such police PNC checks never give a reason or list anything against a persons name in order to instruct the company to refuse to work an event. But that the company sends off a list of names of all staff signing up to work these such events to the police, tells the police what the event is and lists staff roles etc and then asks the police if these staff members can be checked (PNC) and cleared to work the event. And that my name was included in a return police email to the events project manager to refuse me clearance to work at the event.

 

Basically I now have to wait a few days until the event has finished in the expectation and hope that they can speak to this mysteriously elusive event project manager. But like hell am I going away and 100% know the police PNC check I'm doing myself will come back 100% clean.

 

The employer can't do a PNC check for employment purposes. "Employment purposes" means their access to the PNC has to be via the DBS.

There is a (very rare!) exception to this rule.

 

http://content.met.police.uk/Article/Employment-Disclosures/1400005850736/1400005850736

 

You mention that you previously had an eDBS. There is no such thing as a "pass" (since an employer can choose to employ someone with details showing on an eDBS!), but I presume you meant it came back with "None recorded" in all entries.

 

Possible explanations would include:

a) previous eDBS not citing access to children and/or vulnerable adults, where these are cited on the new eDBS (but then you'd be sent a copy of the new eDBS),

b) a new eDBS having been requested, with information "at the Chief Officer's discretion" showing on the employer's copy (since this doesn't have to be shown on the applicant's copy) ...... But again, you would at least receive a copy of the new eDBS even if that section didn't show the info!,

c) the rare exception where a PNC check might apply is where security clearance is involved, in particular where it involves access to certain Crown properties.

I'm not sure if it is still the case but (about 15 years ago!) back when DBS's were "police checks", even before CRB's : it was possible to have a separate entry on the PNC regarding access to the "Palace of Westminster and Royal Palaces" - does the particular event involve one of these?, or

d) the employer is making it up about "a PNC check"

 

SAR the employer (which will show if they did actually do a "PNC check") (+/- the agency they use to request their eDBS's .... Many employers use a contracted agency as the "Registered Body/Person" through whom your eDBS application has to be submitted, in case this relates instead to an eDBS)

[firstclassx]

Have you ever been asked to complete the SC or CTC questionnaire by your employer(s) at any stage in your career?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/303405/20140325-Form_NSV001-U.pdf

 

Or a DV (Developed Vetting)?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/61938/NSV002-Active-2-8.pdf

 

These forms lead to all sorts of agencies swimming in murky waters, MI5, MI6, GCHQ and the NCA to name a few, and the reality is, regardless of what the Data Protection Act says, such organisations will not share the full story with you if you have crossed their path one way or another.

[ericsbrother]

Enhanced DBS will take into account family members IF relevant, such as child minding, where the family member is likely to come into contact with the child. In your case having a dodgy uncle will have no effect on the disclosure and wont get a mention. The tale that names are sent to the police and the rejects come back as a list is cobblers, I used to have to send off lists of names of prospective members of a shooting club and we were never told about anyone who wasnt a prohibited person and evne then we werent the first to know, the wrongdoer was. I used to be fairly close to a SB officer so exchanged information informally with him but again, was never told that x was not to be trusted, just that they had interesting associates and due to the circumstances I understood and we could make a decision on membership that didnt mean that x knew they were being barred for any reason other than the one we told them. However, this certainly wouldnt apply to you (and probably not any UK national at the time).

For this reason I still think your chain is being pulled on the reasons for not using you.

[Andy111]

BazzaS,

 

Thanks for that reply, by their very own reasoning and claims they would have made at least 3 previous such checks for similar events I've worked at for them. And in each case it would have certainly meant the previous events involved working with vulnerable children and adults. As for the location?, nothing of special or security interest in the slightest. Just a temporary event site in the middle of nowhere I'd say without actually naming the company or event in question.

 

And I will be SAR ing the company as they tried to say last week they would not forward me this so called police email citing other names on it. Despite that they could leave the entire email intact with the simple removal of other persons name and then forward it to me. So if they receive the SAR and try to cite destruction of the police email\s (to cover that it possibly doesn't exist) to refuse me access to that and other claimed such PNC checks emails, I do now have it in writing via an email that they do claim to carry out these police PNC checks for all such events. So if the police PNC check I've applied for comes back clear then its going to leave the company in a difficult position in trying to explain themselves on both destroying peoples data if thats what they try to say for not providing it and, if as many of us seem to feel is bull, explaining and standing by a police PNC check policy that seems somewhat unlikely and may be a total lie for whatever reason.

 

firstclassx, no, never been asked to fill in anything of that nature at any point.

 

ericsbrother, thanks, I'm still 90% certain the company or someone within the company is being deceptive to some level or covering someone's screwup. But the somewhat elaborate reasoning by them just dont make sense either, so I feel I'm missing something somewhere unless this is a standard response to deal with unknown to me situations that might have gone on behind the scenes.

[Emmzzi]

I assume you are on a casual contract with no obligation to offer you work at all?

 

In which case I'd do your own checks first and get your facts straight before going in heavy handed.

[Andy111]

Yes, that's correct Emmzzi, a more casual contract with no direct obligation from either side!. So will certainly tread carefully in dealing with the situation and may well wait until the police PNC check comes back before dealing with the company.

 

But in saying that there are also certain obligations from both sides with regards to notice periods over work and cancelling work once both sides have agreed to certain jobs and hours. The job, shifts & hours was finalised and confirmed about 10 days before the event was to take place (I have an email to confirm this) so a binding contract was made at that point I guess. Yet they took me off the job with less than a days notice, more like 18 hours notice citing this PNC reasoning that most seem to feel is bull.

 

Yet in order to confirm and finalise shift and hours 10 days previous you think that they would have already have completed any required staff checks before that eh?. So funny that, and helps to blow a hole in their PNC check excuse as why confirm and finalise shifts with staff that might not be able to work an event?.

 

In total I've lost over 55 hours work at a decent rate of pay and the last minute cancellation of working that event meant that I'd have certainly have lost the chance and ability to find work elsewhere to cover the same period that I certainly could if their so called checks were done 10 days previous before confirming shifts & hours had I failed at that point.

 

So its going to be interesting what the company says and does when the PNC check I've asked for will certainly come back to me clear. Because the company has said that there is no assurance that a similar check they could apply for in the future would not come back with the same result. So either way I've made it clear to the company (bull reasons off them or not) that due to what they have said I've simply no choice that to chase the issue up and get to the bottom of it.