Enforcement Stage - Clarification Sought

[got_thugged]

Section 5(1)(B) - The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014

 

the enforcement stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises

in relation to the instructions up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;

At what stage is the £235 fee incurred?

 

1. Just by visiting at debtor?

2. Or, by taking goods under control?

 

If it's just by visiting the debtor's property then, at what stage do they take control of the goods?

 

For the sake of clarification, CAB website tells me that

 

Enforcement Visiting your home or business premises to take control of goods, including everything involved in identifying, valuing and taking control of your belongings

 

So in essence, if the bailiffs have not taken control of any goods, this stage hasn't applied?

 

Also, do they have to produce any document if they have seized any goods? Or could they just say to you that I am removing goods and take what they fancy?

[dx100uk]

if this is related to this thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?443695-Andrew-James-enforced-at-a-wrong-address/page2

its best we merge these else it will get a bitt silly...

[got_thugged]

if this is related to this thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?443695-Andrew-James-enforced-at-a-wrong-address/page2

its best we merge these else it will get a bitt silly...

 

Hi

 

I was merely making an enquiry about the stage? This doesn't relate to a wrong address question.

 

I'd be grateful if you could please keep this matter separate. Also it'd be kind if you could perhaps point me to a thread where Enforcement stage has been discussed?

[dx100uk]

no problem

 

 

at least the link is there if posters want the back ground

 

 

dx

[lookinforinfo]

I'll start the ball rolling and others can add or clarify as they see fit.

The Law is quite clear that before an Enforcement Agent [posh for bailiff!] can call to a property they must have written to the alleged debtor giving them a Notice of Enforcement. This should give 7 clear days notice

[from the date of receipt of the letter not the day the letter was written]that unless the recipient of the letter contacts the bailiff to arrange payment, then at any time after the date stated the bailiff can call round with a view to taking goods into control in order to pay for the outstanding debt.It

should advise that should no contact be made by the debtor within that period that a bailiff will call and that will incur an automatic charge of £235.

For clarification, 7 clear days notice means that Sundays, bank Holidays and Christmas day are not included. Many companies especially large ones, tend not to post their mail on the date the letter was printed.

Historically, some bailiff companies resorted to this practice and would often arrive at the door before their letter had been received. Fortunately the first visit charge then was only around £20 and not the

scandalous £235 they now charge. And it may well be that some bailiff companies are still not sending out their letters on the day they are written. Some also use mail deliverers other than the Royal Mail. While this may be more of a guarantee that the letter is delivered, it tends be a day or two longer than the Royal Mail. This has to be taken into account when working out when the bailiff is legally allowed to visit.

 

If no contact is made or an agreement on repayment cannot be agreed [and it is obviously in the interest of the bailiff that an agreement cannot be reached] a visit will be made. It is now up to the bailiff when they call. The visit is as far as the Law is concerned is for the bailiff to enter the property and make a list of goods sufficient to repay the debt and the bailiff fees as well as the Auctioneers fees and storage charges. This is

time consuming for bailiffs and very few people actually end up with their goods being auctioned. Either people raise the money or there is not

enough goods in the house to repay the debt and the bailiff returns the debt to the creditor.

Faced with this position, most bailiffs tend to try and call on debtors when they hope they won't be there so that they can post a letter through the door saying they have been and you now owe an extra £235 without the hassle of taking goods into control. Of course if a car is outside it

is much easier and quicker for the bailiff to clamp it rather than go through listing items inside. [And of course there is much greater pressure on the debtor to get their car released.]

 

If the bailiff calls before the correct date then the debtor does not have to pay for that Fee of £235. If you tell them that too early, ie before you are in a position to repay the debt then they will simply call after the due date to get that fee. In your case it would appear that the letter itself is wrong as they have only allowed 7 days from the date of the letter, not from the date that you received the letter. Others may know what the

situation is with that but it would probably be best not to inform the bailiffs yet that their letter does not comply with the Regulations.

[got_thugged]

Sorry if I sound silly but I must ask with absolute clarity,

 

for the Enforcement Stage to happen, apart from "attendance" does anything else need to happen to it to be considered completed? ie. CGA or Notice of Entry? Such as this https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/Migrated_Images/adviceguide/notice-after-entry---bailiffs-e.png

 

Or could they just walk in, tell us that they have been here 20 mins and the Enforcement Stage has now been completed and they have therefore right to remove goods. Start taking items and then pocket in money for all three stages and put the goods back?

 

Or maybe a

 

"Notice that goods have been removed" - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/Migrated_Images/adviceguide/notice-after-removal-of-goods---bailiffs-e.png

[brassnecked]

If it isn't a criminal fine debt then they cannot force entry at the enforcement stage visit, you would have to let them in, or they come in through an unlocked doo Get in or not the £235 is all they can addr. It is a bad idea to let them in anyway, unless there is nothing of great value outside exempt items. If you are wearing a Rolex, they cannot take it as it is in use, if you took it off and put it on the table, it would no longer be in use and the bailiff would snatch it PDQ.

[Peterbard]

Sorry if I sound silly but I must ask with absolute clarity,

 

for the Enforcement Stage to happen, apart from "attendance" does anything else need to happen to it to be considered completed? ie. CGA or Notice of Entry? Such as this https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/Migrated_Images/adviceguide/notice-after-entry---bailiffs-e.png

 

Or could they just walk in, tell us that they have been here 20 mins and the Enforcement Stage has now been completed and they have therefore right to remove goods. Start taking items and then pocket in money for all three stages and put the goods back?

 

Or maybe a

 

"Notice that goods have been removed" - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/Migrated_Images/adviceguide/notice-after-removal-of-goods---bailiffs-e.png

 

As you rightly say the enforcment stage commences on attendance, the next stage(sale) can only commence when goods have been taken under control, as only these can be taken for sale.

 

 

So although there can be continued visits under the enforcment stage (but only one fee), until goods are under control and the sale stage visit commences, the sale stage fee cannot be charged.

 

to be clear the sale stage fee can only be charged on attendance with intent to remove for sale.

 

This si something that the HCEO community in particular are having difficulty coming to terms with, but it is clear that all enforcment comes under the TCE, there are no exceptions.

[Leakie]

From my experience the £235 is charged from when it is passed to the bailiff before they have visited,

if you contact the company after the 7 days have passed, the inmost cases the fee has already been added.

and you are told to speak to the bailiff.

 

 

Leakie

[Peterbard]

From my experience the £235 is charged from when it is passed to the bailiff before they have visited,

if you contact the company after the 7 days have passed, the inmost cases the fee has already been added.

and you are told to speak to the bailiff.

 

 

Leakie

 

 

I thik ou are confusig the enforcment stage fee of 235 with the compliance stage fee of 75, the latter is due on recipt of the account by the enforcemant agent. The enforcment stage fee is due on first attendance.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/regulation/5/made

 

(3) The enforcement agent may recover under this regulation the whole fee provided in the Schedule for a stage where the amount outstanding is paid after the commencement, but before the completion, of that stage.

 

(b)the enforcement stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises in relation to the instructions up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;

[Leakie]

Sorry DB

I was not confusing the fees.

The point I was trying to make was that some of the enforcement company's are adding the fee as soon as they pass them on to the EA,

and before the first time that the EA visits the property,

 

I had contacted the EA company to try and agree a payment plan, which was refused as it was past the 7 days.

I then checked the amount owed, with them and the £235 the fee had already been added.

Leakie

[Peterbard]

Sorry DB

I was not confusing the fees.

The point I was trying to make was that some of the enforcement company's are adding the fee as soon as they pass them on to the EA,

and before the first time that the EA visits the property,

 

I had contacted the EA company to try and agree a payment plan, which was refused as it was past the 7 days.

I then checked the amount owed, with them and the £235 the fee had already been added.

Leakie

 

Well it was incorrect and should be challenged, unfortunately there is nothing new about bailiffs overcharging, things are getting better, as the new fee scales are much easier to understand than the old system but as you say there is still the odd incedent.

[Coughdrop]

Yes Leakie - I trust you challenged that fee. If not and you paid, you should do so now.

[brassnecked]

Bailiffs will be bailiffs, and they will try to max out the fees before they visit, just as Equita used to do with their blatant upfront fee fraud under the old system

[Leakie]

They would not enter into an agreement as it was with the bailiff.

I am an old hand with these guys so I will not deal with the bailiff, and have complained to the council.

awaiting a reply.

It was for an old Council tax debt( pre 2014) that Equita failed to collect, after I told the bailiff he was not going to enter the house.

Newlyns have it now .

 

Leakie