Used an 'NHS only bay' in a council car park, got a PCN, but signs are too high up to read?

[Michael Browne]

What options are left to me for a refund?

No expert, but I would say none.

[Michael Browne]

Post up the adjudicator's decision

[Michael Browne]

Sorry but I cant find the adjudicator's decision note

That seems pretty extraordinary

How about the PATAS/London Tribunal case reference no. or the pcn no. then?

[Michael Browne]

Your reluctance to show the adjudicator's decision isn't helpful either

[Michael Browne]

There is no reluctance MB, I simply dont have it. But what is there to know? They ruled against me and thats that. I will dig some more and try to find it.

 

You say you have all the evidence etc, yet cannot produce either the pcn no. or the London Tribunal reference no.

 

Sorry I simply don't believe you.

 

You also say you wrote to the adjudicators by recorded delivery, with photographs, asking them to ask the council to refund. One assumes that if you seriously wanted them reverse their decision, you would have included the reference no. in order that they would know which case you were talking about.

[Michael Browne]

If you care to trace this thread before you embark on invective, I did include the pcn and case numbers but they have been blanked, probably by the moderators.

 

They may possibly have done, but you're the one with all the original documentation, ie the pcn itself, the NtO, your representations to the council, their rejection letters, correspondence to and from the London Tribunals, all of which will have quoted the pcn no. Yet you still can't/won't provide that one piece of basic information.

 

One has to wonder why?

[Michael Browne]

The only documentation that I am NOT in possession of is the tribunal's decision letter. Or are you saying that YOU want to see the docs?

Yes

 

Why?

So that we can see precisely the reasons why the adjudicator refused your appeal, which may help us to help you.

 

You have already seen that its not ok to forward pcn details on this site? Ask the moderator. I'm confused

There is nothing in the site rules that preclude posting pcn or London Tribunal ref no's if you're happy to. Clearly you aren't, which leads to the conclusion that there's something in the adjudicator's decision which you don't want us to see.

 

If I'm wrong just post the no's

[Michael Browne]

From that I'll take it that you are never going to post a copy the adjudicator's decision?

[Michael Browne]

Here you go, don't know what all the fuss was about:

 

The allegation in this case is that the vehicle was parked in a permit bay in an off-street car park without clearly displaying a valid permit.

Mr. xxx does not in fact dispute this but he criticises the quality of the signage.

He says that he believed he could pay and display and duly did so.

He did not see any signs to indicate the bay was restricted to permit holders only.

He has provided photographic evidence to support his assertion that the signage of restrictions was not clear and adequate.

He says that he parked in heavy rain and rushed out of his vehicle to the pay and display machine.

He criticises the location of the time plate ‘on a post’ and also its height on the post.

He has provided a copy of his pay and display ticket.

The motorist should never assume restrictions and must check the relevant signage.

Any motorist who parks without properly checking takes the risk that the vehicle is parked in contravention.

The Enforcement Authority have provided photographs of the signage relied upon and I have been able to consider these together with Mr. xxx’s photographs and those taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer.

Having done so I am satisfied that there were a series of signs indicating ‘NHS permit holders only in blue bay and that Mr. xxx’s vehicle was parked in a blue bay.

I am satisfied that the signage of restrictions was clear and adequate to inform the motorist who gave the question the appropriate degree of attention.

While I accept that Mr. xxx made a genuine error, this amounts only to mitigation.

The Enforcement Authority may cancel a PCN as a matter of their discretion but Adjudicators have no power to direct cancellation on the basis of mitigating circumstances.

[Michael Browne]

I believe that this was what was in the adjudicator's letter.

 

 

Dont you agree that the council, having collected their fine,

then go and rotate the sign as per my plea constitute an admission of guilt tantamount to fraud?

No

 

It is clear I would have seen the sign had it been in its present orientation

and thus this is an unjust and duplicitous penalization.

Except that you've already said:

It was raining heavily when I parked so I wasnt about to turn my head up at the sky to read ANY signs even if I saw them.

When its pelting it down, the last thing you'd do is to look up.

You just want to run to the ticket machine and out of the rain as quick as you can.

 

If the council had been satisfied with the decision above they would not have changed the sign, and thus they should issue a refund

 

 

As barns 66 has said the two photos of the pole have differences, the base for one, so the orientation could have been changed then.

 

Whilst I agree the sign could have been better positioned at a lower height, the fact is you admit that because it was raining hard you didn't bother to check, we've all done it, but it still remains your responsibility.

[Michael Browne]

Look.. the whole gist of my argument is that they have changed the sign to conform with my defence plea, and as such it throws the whole of the adjudicator's ruling out of the window.

 

No it doesn't, even in it's previous orientation the adjudicator ruled that:

I am satisfied that the signage of restrictions was clear and adequate to inform the motorist who gave the question the appropriate degree of attention.

 

And you've admitted you didn't bother to look.

[Michael Browne]

I never admitted "I didnt bother to look".

 

Not in your appeal maybe, but you have in this thread:

 

It was raining heavily when I parked so I wasnt about to turn my head up at the sky to read ANY signs even if I saw them.

 

 

When its pelting it down, the last thing you'd do is to look up.

You just want to run to the ticket machine and out of the rain as quick as you can.

 

 

. Regardless of all that... why dont you question their decision to rotate the sign? Isnt that the most glaring fact here? Shouldnt they be refunding me the penalty which they now was enforced under false conditions?

It's neither here nor there what I think, it's not me you have to convince, it's the Council. Good luck with that.

 

I cannot imagine they are ever going to refund you., but hey it's the internet and only my opinion.

 

I'd just put it down to experience and next time get a bit wetter and save yourself £130 and a lot of grief.