hsbc - old Midland Bank Loan

[johnnymitch]

Hi firstship , welcome to the forum

 

To avoid being at their whims I think it's probably better to push them a bit - force them to admit whether or not they have the documents you're looking for .... although I do take silver's point that in rare cases they may come up with them at the 11th hour......

 

There is a letter on this link which may help :

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/110742-bls-no-cca-but.html#post1143624

 

I also came across this recently which I thought was quite a good way of forcing their hand ........

 

"PLEASE NOTE that unless otherwise stated by yourselves and if the above documents are NOT provided, it will be CONFIRMED that you are unable to reproduce/provide in any way shape or form any copies of the above requested documents. You are reminded that you have a duty to inform me if you do not have the above documents. This is confirmed in High Court Law - Ezsias v Welsh Ministers - [2007] All ER (D) 65 (Dec)"

 

Incidentally remember , if you sign anything , make sure you put a couple of crosses behind it so it can't be 'lifted' - not that I'm suggesting for a minute that they'd do that , but some less reputable firms have been known to try it ....

[johnnymitch]

No problem, firstship - let's know how you get on - it'll help others in the same position

[johnnymitch]

Well , they have complied with your request and told you they can't produce firstship - that's a result !

 

And they've even taken the trouble to notify FOS for you - how nice of them ........

 

I can't see how this can be a waiting game being played by them .... without an agreement this debt is unenforceable ..... which means it's still there , but they can't chase you for it , because they can't prove you owe it .

But watch it - in a few weeks time they'll maybe pass it to a DCA (although they're not supposed to , because it's in Dispute ....) and the DCA will chase you until you tell them to back off because it's unenforceable - and in dispute until they formally abandon it ......

 

Like you I can't believe they said what they did in #3 about still being able to report you to CCAs for non-payment of a debt they cannot prove exists

 

It may be better to try heading them off at the pass with a letter something like :

 

"

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Remember, print your name, don't sign.

[johnnymitch]

Oops -double posted !

[johnnymitch]

Hey MD - you don't speak to me for weeks and the first thing you say is "Plonker!" :lol:

 

In this case you were kind of stating the obvious though ........LOL!

[johnnymitch]

There's a letter for that too if you need it , firstship

 

Have you considered reporting them to the FOS for the statement they made in that letter in #3 ? . That is blatant flouting of the rules ...... in writing too .... they really are either arrogant or simply plain stupid !

Edited June 29, 2009 by johnnymitch

[johnnymitch]

Well done firstship - way to go ! Don't hold your breath waiting for FOS to give you a result , but at least you've started the ball rolling ........ and yes please , keep us posted ......

 

Once you get a case no . from FOS don't forget to quote it on any correspondence to HSBC ...just to remind them it's definitely 'In Dispute'

 

I'm afraid I can't get enough magnification on your letter from Natwest - can you try reposting it please(maybe via photobucket ) and let me know if you manage it ......

[johnnymitch]

Hi firstship

 

If you've got it in writing that they can't produce the agreement , I'd let 'em sweat ....... they can't take you to court or chase you for any money which they can't prove you owe them ......

 

If it's not an admission in writing , wait and see what they come back with from your latest letters - come back and we can take it from there ..... but basically ...... no agreement ... the alleged debt is unenforceable ......

 

Sorry first ship, I should have read further back ..... I think you've done all you can .... for now .... let 'em sweat .....

Edited October 3, 2009 by johnnymitch

[johnnymitch]

Probably the best course of action firstship , the ball is really in their court at the moment .... let's see how they play it !

 

But, of course, come back if you need more help........

 

btw ...thanks for tipping my scales . ...much appreciated

[johnnymitch]

Balance of Probabilities my foot !

 

Vint is right - if they haven't got an agreement it's not enforceable .... and they can't report without one .. that letter is gobbledegook designed to put you off.... don't let them snow you ......

 

And you've got a letter admitting that they have no original document - that is a big plus ..... .

[johnnymitch]

Hi firstship ,

 

Unenforceable agreements

 

Absence of signed agreement

The agreement entered into between you and the bank is one which is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (“the Act”). Section 61 requires that a regulated agreement be contained a written document which has been signed by both parties. Failure to do so means that the agreement has not been properly executed.

The consequence of improper execution is that the agreement cannot be enforced without an order of the court and in a case where a signed document has never existed, the court is prohibited from making such an order by Section 127(3) of the Act. The agreement is therefore unenforceable

 

Lots of reading in this link which may help;

 

Does ‘Incorrect’ mean ‘Unenforceable’

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/190821-hsbc-does-incorrect-unenforceable.html#post2062528

 

There is also a process called 'Declaratory Relief ' ..... which basically means that the bank gives you a certification in writing that the debt is dead in the water and cannot be pursued ..... which ends the whole ball game once and for all .. may be worth a try ..... but I don't think the local branch will have the authority , or the know-how to implement this ....

 

But you could mention it , once you find out what they're offering .. the ball is in your court , without an agreement , which they have admitted , they're up the creek without a paddle ,,....

They can't chase you for it - they can't default you for it -IMHO they'd be as well to abandon it .....

 

Edited December 15, 2009 by johnnymitch
Tidying up font marks ...

[johnnymitch]

Only if you let them rudy ......that's why this site is here ..... to help you fight back ...

[johnnymitch]

looks hopeful FS .....

[johnnymitch]

Brilliant result FS !!! Congratulations !"!!

 

As silverfox wisely says .....keep hold of that letter in a very safe place .. but I would say that's the end of it ... unless MCS are truly stupid ..... .

To leave it on file is possibly to leave the record of it on file ..... .

 

Also ,it may be better to wait until you get a confirmation from MCS that the debt has been written off...... I notice they say they 'have instructed' MCS to write it off .... and ,while MCS as you say are HSBC, they may just be tempted to try to recover this at their own instigation .

 

But I 'd relax and enjoy - I think it's a result !