Letter received regarding travelling without valid ticket

[trevithick77]

Hi I'm looking for some advice.

 

I bought a single ticket to Cheltenham at a ticket machine prior to boarding a train at Cardiff. I used the ticket to go through the turnstiles and then boarded the train. When asked for my ticket by the conductor I was unable to produce it. I can only imagine that it dropped from my pocket between the turnstiles and the train. The conductor was sympathetic and said that I just needed to fill out a form and the matter would be resolved if I was able to produce evidence of buying the ticket.

 

Shortly after I received a letter from Transport Investigations. I wrote back to them and copied in the receipt from my credit card which gave all the relevant information about my purchase including a purchase reference number from the ticket machine.

 

In response, Transport Investigations sent me back a generic letter alleging that I "had failed to pay the fare correct due and had boarded a train with the intention of travelling without having previously paid the correct amount".

 

This is obviously not true and I have evidence to demonstrate this fact.

 

What should I do now?

[firstclassx]

Offer to pay their administrative costs, between £50 and £80.

 

They will not use the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 that they refer to (which involves "intent").

 

HOWEVER, they are quite correct in that they could (and will) prosecute. They will use one of these Byelaws instead:

 

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

 

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter

any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a

valid ticket entitling him to travel.

 

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity

when asked to do so by an authorised person.

 

Regardless of whether you originally purchased a ticket or not, if you've lost it etc, you are going to have to take it on the chin and pay a settlement to avoid (criminal) court action.

 

You also need to consider that it isn't straightforward to simply say you bought a ticket. Somebody else could have potentially found your ticket and used it themselves, or (tried to) claim a refund on it, or, that the ticket you purchased was for somebody else, and you tried to travel as well etc.

 

The train operator could have a potential loss, and you would never know.

[trevithick77]

Thanks FirstClassX.

 

At the moment I'm inclined to go to court and defend my case. I am an honest person and I have good evidence that I had bought the required ticket. Obviously this isn't something that I would want to do, and I realise it's a risk, but I believe a principle is at stake here. Our law should be based on justice and if the law isn't just then it should be changed. This isn't simply a game whereby the rules are arbitrarily chosen and accepted but rather are based on what is right and just. And if someone can prove that they paid the correct fare and had no intention of boarding a train without having paid for a ticket, then they should not be penalised for doing otherwise.

Edited April 24, 2014 by trevithick77
spelling mistake!

[BazzaS]

Thanks FirstClassX.

 

At the moment I'm inclined to go to court and defend my case. I am an honest person and I have good evidence that I had bought the required ticket. Obviously this isn't something that I would want to do, and I realise it's a risk, but I believe a principle is at stake here. Our law should be based on justice and if the law isn't just then it should be changed. This isn't simply a game whereby the rules are arbitrarily chosen and accepted but rather are based on what is right and just. And if someone can prove that they paid the correct fare and had no intention of boarding a train without having paid for a ticket, then they should not be penalised for doing otherwise.

 

You are correct that you shouldn't be penalised for travelling without intending to pay your fare, and indeed you can likely produce sufficient doubt that that was ever your intent.

 

Firstclassx has already noted the hazard to your "point of principle" approach, though.

You may well successfully defend a S5.3 RRA 1889 prosecution by them failing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you travelled with intent to avoid your fare.

 

Bear in mind that the TOC doesn't have to offer an administrative settlement ("out of court")

What happens if you "take your firm stand" and then the prosecutions office look at the case and think "S5.3 may well fail, lets go for the Bylaw".

 

The S5.3 charge summons is withdrawn, having been replaced with a Bylaw prosecution.

You will get your day in court, and may well get a sympathetic judge / bench.

 

You might be able to claim you had a valid ticket with you when you entered the train (at least, if you claim you might have since you don't know where you lost it!, they can't prove you didn't....) .. but what about 18(2) as firstclassx has mentioned?

 

Then their sympathy will be limited to mitigation, though, rather than defence if the prosecutor points out that in considering guilty or not guilty, the bench / judge must decide one question only : "did you show a ticket on demand?"

 

That is what Bylaw 18(2) requires. It may be harsh bearing in mind that you had bought a ticket, but the TOC can argue the points firstclassx has made (other ticket for same sum purchased, ticket might have been given to another), but they WON'T have to argue this in court - just "were you asked to show your ticket, and did you then do so"

 

This is a hazard of the approach you are planning, rather than the approach firstclassx is suggesting.

[trevithick77]

Hmm... thanks BazzaS. Lots to think about.

 

This bylaw seems unfair. I did buy a ticket in good faith. I didn't give my ticket to anyone else. I genuinely lost it between going through the turnstiles and boarding the train. I have always been in good standing and this has never happened to me before. Therefore, to prosecute me for failing to show a ticket seems unreasonably harsh.

 

It has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth and makes me feel very sad.

[BazzaS]

Hmm... thanks BazzaS. Lots to think about.

 

This bylaw seems unfair. I did buy a ticket in good faith. I didn't give my ticket to anyone else. I genuinely lost it between going through the turnstiles and boarding the train. I have always been in good standing and this has never happened to me before. Therefore, to prosecute me for failing to show a ticket seems unreasonably harsh.

 

It has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth and makes me feel very sad.

 

I'm not disagreeing that it is a bitter pill to swallow & were it me I'd feel aggrieved too.

 

That is because you know you have done nothing wrong beyond lose your ticket.

 

The thing is, how is the TOC to distinguish between you or I (honest), and the other possible scenarios that firstclassx mentioned that might be used by less honest people, as a means of not paying their fare but circumventing the "intent to avoid a fare" charge? They can't.

The only way the TOC can be sure the ticket is only used once and doesn't get refunded is when the on train staff endorse the ticket to show such.

Additionally, while accidents / mishaps do happen : in the end the TOC can ask "who lost the ticket"? / "whose responsibility is it to safeguard that ticket as the only valid voucher for travel " ... I'd feel aggrieved too, but might have to accept my responsibility and the TOC not being able to divine who is "trying it on" and "who is honest".

[JohnSwansea]

I agree with the comments above. Prosecution and conviction for a strict liability offence is a real possibility in these circumstances, and therefore letting this run and having your day in court would be a mistake in my view.

If it were me I would follow up with Arriva Trains Wales, setting out what happened and pointing out that pursuing this in the way they are seems like massive overkill, and asking that they request TIL not to pursue this case any further.

ATW MD is Ian.Bullock@Arrivatw.co.uk and Customer Services Director is Lynne.Milligan@Arrivatw.co.uk. Their tel nos are 029 2072 0668 and 029 2072 0672.

Other reports on line suggest that copying in or separately asking for the assistance of your MP or Assembly Member may help, but you may prefer not to do that for now.

[trevithick77]

Thank you JohnSwansea. I have emailed both Ian and Lynne and will post the outcome.

 

I suppose that if Transport Investigations are a private company (and I am presuming that this is the case), it is in their interest to try to prosecute as many people as possible regardless of their circumstances. Hence why they send out the same generic, threatening letters regardless of any points or questions raised in the letters sent to them.

 

BazzaS,

 

I accept the points about distinguishing between genuine mistakes and free riders but this just raises a broader question for society: is it better to find innocent people guilty or guilty people innocent?

[firstclassx]

Thank you JohnSwansea. I have emailed both Ian and Lynne and will post the outcome.

 

I suppose that if Transport Investigations are a private company (and I am presuming that this is the case), it is in their interest to try to prosecute as many people as possible regardless of their circumstances. Hence why they send out the same generic, threatening letters regardless of any points or questions raised in the letters sent to them.

 

BazzaS,

 

I accept the points about distinguishing between genuine mistakes and free riders but this just raises a broader question for society: is it better to find innocent people guilty or guilty people innocent?

 

Transport Investigations Ltd is hired and authorised by Arriva Trains Wales to perform their revenue protection operations. ATW policy is to enforce Byelaw 18 whenever ticketless travel is detected. There is no "bonus" or "commission" structure.

 

The reason the same generic letters are sent out is because mitigation does nothing to change the fact that you are in breach of the law. Mitigation is only really relevant when it comes to sentencing.

[rebel11]

Hi trevithick

 

I agree (bit in red) with JS, you have evidence that a ticket was purchased, they responded with a template, although you have provided evidence, it clearly wasn't your intention to travel without a ticket, so seems very, very harsh.

 

I agree with the comments above. Prosecution and conviction for a strict liability offence is a real possibility in these circumstances, and therefore letting this run and having your day in court would be a mistake in my view.

If it were me I would follow up with Arriva Trains Wales, setting out what happened and pointing out that pursuing this in the way they are seems like massive overkill, and asking that they request TIL not to pursue this case any further.

ATW MD is Ian.Bullock@Arrivatw.co.uk and Customer Services Director is Lynne.Milligan@Arrivatw.co.uk. Their tel nos are 029 2072 0668 and 029 2072 0672.

Other reports on line suggest that copying in or separately asking for the assistance of your MP or Assembly Member may help, but you may prefer not to do that for now.

[Elimeyyxx92]

Hi I'm looking for some advice.

 

I bought a single ticket to Cheltenham at a ticket machine prior to boarding a train at Cardiff. I used the ticket to go through the turnstiles and then boarded the train. When asked for my ticket by the conductor I was unable to produce it. I can only imagine that it dropped from my pocket between the turnstiles and the train. The conductor was sympathetic and said that I just needed to fill out a form and the matter would be resolved if I was able to produce evidence of buying the ticket.

 

Shortly after I received a letter from Transport Investigations. I wrote back to them and copied in the receipt from my credit card which gave all the relevant information about my purchase including a purchase reference number from the ticket machine.

 

In response, Transport Investigations sent me back a generic letter alleging that I "had failed to pay the fare correct due and had boarded a train with the intention of travelling without having previously paid the correct amount".

 

This is obviously not true and I have evidence to demonstrate this fact.

 

What should I do now?

 

Hello

 

I've had a similar situation happen to me, what was the outcome???

 

So stressed about this!!

 

Thanks