out of my depth with SD over school fees

[macm00n]

I have been advised to post my situation here, to see if there is anyone who can advise. I really do hope so.

 

My youngest was excluded from school for missing a monthly direct debit payment.

 

I have been a parent at school for 8 years, seeing my eldest all the way through the school till 18, and have on occasion had a direct debit miss, I have always subsequently then paid the bill, and the dd continues and there is no problems, I pay the late payment charges etc. But it all gets paid, and the monthly direct debits continue, that has been our history with them for 8 years.

 

However this time it was different, we had been struggling to pay the fees, but paid they were, some dds met the odd one didn't, we cleared them within a month of missing, this occurred over a 7 month period.

 

But at this point we were not in debt with our payments.

 

The next missed DD, we got the standard email from the school saying this had happened, and that we needed to bring the account up to date, at this point we knew from previous experience that we had until the next dd date to sort it, however 2 weeks short of that date the school sent a letter to say that unless the entire term was now paid up our youngest would be excluded.

taking the amount owing from £1190 to £5900 inclu additions and deposit for a place at prep school.

 

Unfortunately at the time I was under investigation for cancer, and my husbands business was struggling financially,( the school were aware of both situations). We could have paid the initial amount owed but were not given the chance to by the school, they were demanding the full amount.

 

Subsequently our youngestr was excluded.

I went to the head and informed them we could no longer afford to keep her place, and that we would not be taking up her place at prep school. This was all in May 2013.

 

We heard nothing else from the school, until mid sept when they wrote to say the bill was outstanding, that we still had to pay the full term and we could pay by instalments, 3 in total. before we could arrange that it went to a solicitor and to court.

 

At the time this was taken to northhampton county court, my husband had a stroke and was very ill, we didn't fight the ccj unfortunately. It has now escalated to a statutory demand.

 

Now in a position mentally and health wise to deal with this..(just)

 

we have asked for a set aside on the ccj, as we are refuting the amounts and the school has refused to give us a detailed breakdown of the bill, we have also put in a set aside for the statutory demand ( which wasn't dated). we have 2 court dates impending.

 

Is there anything we can do as damage limitation, or anything that could help us with this issue.

 

The bill has now risen a further £3000 and we can't just pay it off, otherwise we would.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[unclebulgaria67]

I think you need to see whether you can have form of cordial discussion with the school about this. Perhaps a letter from your husbands Doctor about the medical problems he has faced will atleast make the school think about how they are dealing with this debt. Are the school members of any organisation, which has rules about the way in which its members deal with debts ? There may be some form of arbitration service available via the organisation the school is a member of.

 

What I am basically saying is that if at all possible, you want to try to gain an agreement with the school, for you to make affordable repayments. The school has the CCJ as a fall back, so they don't need to make you bankrupt to gain payment over a period of time. The costs of bankruptcy are ridiculous and your home may be at risk. The courts willprefer you to resolve this debt between you and the school. Make sure you keep things in writing, so you can evidence that you have sought to resolve the debt.

[citizenB]

Ok, so they already have a County Court Judgment against you and are now attempting to enforce by way of BR.

 

When you received the Order from the court, did you apply to either set aside based on the fact that the Claimant was aware of the serious health issues that prevented you from defending - which you would have done based on the fact that they did not substantiate their claim ?

 

Or,

 

you could have made an application to vary the terms of the order into an installment order.

 

When did the Stat Demand come into your possession - if you are going to apply have this set aside, then you have 18 days from the point that you received it.

 

You should proceed on the basis that you might need to apply for the set aside, but follow Uncle B's advice and try to negotiate a plan with the school.

 

Do you own your own property ? - I wonder why they didnt apply to have a charge put on that ?

[macm00n]

Thank you both for your replies...

 

UncleBulgaria...... This would be my preferred choice, but the school have been very unsympathetic. the illness during the period my youngest was excluded for missing 1 payment... was mine. I was undergoing invasive investigations for cancer.

 

when the school involved the solicitor, before county court action, we requested an itemisation of the school bill, as it had increased yet again. The school refused to do so. When the debt went to court it was for a different amount again, this time slightly less.

 

It was at this time, that my husband had a stroke, and was seriously ill. And to be honest, rightly or wrongly, this was the last thing on my mind.

 

So when he was stable I contacted the solicitor about payments, but the school would only take full payment. we couldn't do that.

 

CitizenB ....We have actioned a set aside on the CCj for the amounts and not being in a position to contest it in court. that is the first hearing www need to attend. I have all letters/emails referencing our interaction with the school, medical proof of the stroke, etc. But we have always disputed the amounts, and aim to do so at the hearing. The amounts the school claims we owe have changed 5 times.

 

We have also actioned the set aside for the SD all the paperwork went in within the 18 day time frame. This hearing we need to attend 2 weeks after the first. We are hoping that the outcome of the first hearing will prevent the second from happening.

 

But I am completely out of my depth as to what else to take with me, and how to fight this to prevent the second hearing from occurring, whilst having to be cautious around my husbands health, as all this stress is likely to set of another stroke. He has already been warned about this from the GP.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi macm00n and welcome to CAG.

 

I'll ask some SD/legal guys to come to your thread.

 

I have to say that I think the school are being very unsympathetic under the circumstances, particularly as they have received many years of school fees from you, and that is apart from the fact that they are aware that both you and your husband have been seriously ill.

 

I'm sure the guys will help you.

 

DD

[citizenB]

It will be in your interest to take all relevant information regarding this whole incident. If you pop everything into a file binder - perhaps also type up a timeline of everything that has happened to date. Have you been asked to provide a witness statement ?

 

They have issued a claim against you for a sum of money - they are obliged to provide an proper accounting. They cant simply say you owe us £x amount ??

[AndyOrch]

Hi macm.

 

You need to concentrate on the CCJ set a side...if not successful the second set a side wont happen as its based on a judgment and they will (must) proceed to petition which is silly because then they will probably get nothing.

 

It would appear on the face of it the Solicitor is inexperienced as using a SD is the worst means of enforcement of a CCJ.Could you post what you have submitted in support of your application to set a side the judgment.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[macm00n]

Thank you Desperate daniella - any help would be gratefully received. x

 

Hi Andyorch

 

this is what we used for the set aside.

(very inexperienced at this I really hope its enough.)

 

we are both named on the initial ccj and the SD

 

we informed the court we wanted to set aside as we were not in a position to defend the initial claim in November for the following reasons.

 

'xxxxxx is currently under the care of xxxxxx (Consultant Ophthalmic Surgeon) at the xxxxx Hospital for a blood clot that formed around the optic nerve of his right eye in November 2013. It is a rare form of stroke, that causes varying degrees of sight loss in the affected eye. He has been recovering since this time, and is still receiving regular treatment for this condition and acute hypertension. He was so unwell, and unable to function normally. xxxxxx (his wife) has had to take on the responsibility of all household requirements as well as home schooling our child after xxxxx excluded her, leaving us with no alternative school place (as substantiated by the LEA).We have disputed the amount claimed by the claimant since day one. They have been obstructive and defiant in their dealings with us, and we feel, as very long term parents of xxxxx students, that we were treated inconsistently, unfairly and punitively without regard to our history and tenure with the school. It has been impossible to derive a final amount owed to xxxx due to the opaque nature of their billing. But items were included in this bill that were not received and the amount claimed varied over subsequent requests. We intend to provide a timeline and papertrail to validate our position to the court'

 

I have put together a timeline of events that are verified by emails, letters, and voicemail.

 

But it looks like we need a solid reason to get this set aside, i.e. they broke the contract first, (so I've been advised) does 18months of bullying count? its all documented, and the school has a file on the events, or am i just grasping now?

 

sorry all ....the hearing is really soon and I guess nerves are now getting the better of me. I have to do this whilst at the same time try to limit the stress this has on my husband.

[macm00n]

Hi CitizenB

 

I think i have everything together including a time line of events, verified by relevant emails.

 

No they have not asked for a witness statement. Should they have?? do I need one???

[AndyOrch]

Thank you ...and if you could type out (verbatim) their particulars of claim (less any identifiable data).

Also the date of the claim and date of judgment.. and was the judgment payment forthwith?

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

Was this a Default Judgment because you did not respond to the Claim?

 

DD

[macm00n]

Hi Desperate Daniella

 

yes I think this was, but we were unable to respond to the claim as my husband was seriously ill at this time.

 

although I'm not sure that will even count. god this is all such a mess.

[macm00n]

Hi Andyorch

 

here are the claim particulars....

 

 

1. the claimant's claim is for the balance of school fees unpaid for xxxxxxxx of £4500 as per attachment of account and invoices, dated march 2013, june 2013, due from the defendants under the attached signed acceptance forms and standard terms and conditions dated feb2009 and interest theron.

 

2. Due to non-payment of fees for xxxxxxx was excluded from school during the summer term. Under clause 4 & 5 of the standard terms & conditions provided:

4) A pupil may be excluded from the school at any time when fees are unpaid and will be deemed withdrawn without notice 28days after exclusion (then a terms fee in lieu of notice will be payable)

5) Withdrawal from school: At least a terms notice must be given before a pupil is withdrawn from the school or a terms fees in lieu will be immediately due and payable.

 

3. Therefore the defendants are liable to pay all fees due for the remainder of the summer term.

 

4.Despite letters and demands from the claimant and its solicitors since september 2013, the defendants have failed to pay the amount due or any part thereof.

 

5. The claimant also claims interest at 1.5% per month in accordance with clause 4(e) of the said standard terms and conditions.

 

6. the claimant also claims for its legal and administrative costs caused by late payment of these fees in accordance with clause 2 of the said terms and conditions.

 

And the claimant claims

 

1. the said sum of £4500

 

2. contractual interest at the rate of 1.5% per month on £4500 from xxxx - xxxx

and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment at the rate of £2.50 per day.

 

Thankyou for looking over all of this Andyorch..... i have to be honest I'm beginning to lose hope

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

Andy will advise you on exactly what to say for the set aside.

 

You said they broke the contract first. I'm not quite clear on that. I'm sorry if I have misunderstood something you have already said.

 

I'm a bit muddled about the £4,000 they were holding as a deposit.

 

Was this a deposit they had been holding since your daughter started at the school - approximately one term's fees?

 

Or was your youngest daughter about to start school in September and you informed them in May that you would not be able to afford the fees and therefore she could not attend the school?

 

Or was she at their pre-prep and due to go on to the prep?

 

Are they saying that because you gave notice in May - just a couple of weeks into the Summer term as opposed to on the first day of the Summer term - that you have to forfeit the deposit?

[Desperate Daniella]

Sorry -

 

Or had you not paid the deposit to secure her place and there was only a verbal agreement that she would be going to the school?

[AndyOrch]

And the date of the claim and judgment and is payment forthwith please macm.

[macm00n]

Hi Andy

 

the date of the judgement was the 11th of dec, and payment forthwith was asked for.

 

however my husband had had a stroke on the 31st Nov and again on the 2 dec, so we were in no position to contest this.

we have and were challenging the school bill as there are additional costs other than the interest and fees they claim due on the bill.

But couldn't do this by way of the courts at the time because my husband was so poorly.

 

it doesn't look promising does it?

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi macm00n,

 

Andy is offline at the moment, but can you remember if you sent in the Acknowledgment when you received the claim form?

 

DD

[macm00n]

Hi DD

 

I was told by a friend that if I could prove they broke the contract first that might work in our favour. So i was asking if we could use the 18month bullying issue, as it was all documented, to do this. But it feels like grasping at straws to be honest.

 

No the school were not holding a £4000 deposit.... they are stating we owe £4500 in lieu of a terms notice. They held only a £200 deposit, so that comes nowhere near a terms fees.

Our youngest was transferring from the pre-prep school to the prep school, but we didn't take up her place.... this is not at present in dispute.

She was excluded in May because we had missed a payment and rather than allowing us to catch up what was owed they i.e. the missed payment and the next impending payment. They excluded siting they wanted the terms bill paid in full or she would not be allowed to return to school. So the bill Tripled.

[macm00n]

Hi DD

 

in answer to your post about the acknowledgement - no I'm afraid we didn't. Life was just to fraught and hectic. hubby had already been taken ill.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Macm00n,

 

I do think the school has behaved rather unreasonably here as a small child's education has been disrupted by their actions.

 

I'm not certain about the bullying issue but I'm wondering if it could be relevant to the schools actions.

 

They had previously allowed you to pay by direct debit and had also accepted late payments until this last occasion. On this last occasion they wanted three months' payments immediately and because you couldn't pay that they excluded your little girl from school?

 

Then, because you told them you were in financial difficulties and could not afford to pay them the three payments for the Summer Term, and the following (Autumn) term's bill completely in advance they demanded the whole lot, and ultimately issued proceedings?

 

I am wondering if they wanted to get rid of you because of the on-going complaints about bullying.

 

Is the school over-subscribed? Do they have a waiting list? Were all the places filled for the Autumn Term, meaning that they had suffered no financial loss by your daughter not being there?

 

Sorry to throw so many questions at you.

[Desperate Daniella]

Also, basic stuff I know, but have you googled the school and checked mumsnet, netmums, etc., to see if there are any complaints about the school handling matters like this.

 

It may not help the set aside, but sometimes these sites do provide information which could provide ammunition.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi DD

 

in answer to your post about the acknowledgement - no I'm afraid we didn't. Life was just to fraught and hectic. hubby had already been taken ill.

 

Don't worry about this now.

[Desperate Daniella]

Also, is £200 the actual deposit held for the entire time the child is at school, or was it a "holding" deposit to reserve a place for some months or years in advance, with the one term's deposit being required in the Summer Term before the child starts, and the first term's fees being due on the first day of term?

 

Most private schools want to hold a whole term's fees while the child is at the school, refundable after they finally finish at the school.

 

Of course I know that schools differ.

[macm00n]

Also, is £200 the actual deposit held for the entire time the child is at school, or was it a "holding" deposit to reserve a place for some months or years in advance, with the one term's deposit being required in the Summer Term before the child starts, and the first term's fees being due on the first day of term?

 

Most private schools want to hold a whole term's fees while the child is at the school, refundable after they finally finish at the school.

 

Of course I know that schools differ.

 

Yes the £200 was the deposit given when our youngest started school at 4.

It continues through the time at school, and gets added to as they progress up the school. To accept a place in prep you have to add another £1100, then if you continue through to senior another £2000 is required.

 

So the deposit of £1100 was required on accepting placement for the prep, then its term fees on top. We never signed nor gave a deposit. so thats not in dispute.