JTR Collections and Brighton Council Tax

[daivernon]

Hi, I wonder if I could get some help regarding JTR.

 

I owed council tax from a few years ago.

Brighton Council sent me a letter,

I wasn't in a position to pay so stupidly ignored it.

They have a liability order.

It was passed to JTR.

 

JTR didn't write saying they were going to come and just turned up one morning.

 

He had no copies of anything.

No liability order, nothing from the council,

just a scrumpled up bit of ID that looked home laminated.

 

After threatening me on the doorstep,

I said I wanted proof that he was who he said he was and was acting on the council's behest.

He had nothing.

 

I asked for the number of the council, which he gave me.

 

I went into the house to call them to check he was acting on their instruction.

 

I didn't lock my front door during this time,

and he let himself in and started writing a list of items in my sitting room,

whilst I was on phone trying to find out who he was.

 

At no point did I say I wouldn't pay. I just wanted to find out who he was.

 

I tried to pay the council the full amount directly at this point. They refused.

 

He then gave me a "notice of seizure of goods and inventory' where he had listed 5 items.

 

He also put on charges as follows:

 

Levy Charge: £58

Enforcement fee: £150

 

He was informed my wife was pregnant, and therefore vulnerable. He didn't stop.

 

I then agreed to pay the council tax debt in three instalments. I rang JTR and made a payment of 1/3.

 

I have since logged a complaint with Brighton Council

saying that I believe he was acting unlawfully turning up with no proof,

letting himself in,

and adding these fees when I was prepared to pay the debt,

just not the charges.

 

They have replied saying he was acting within the law and all the charges are applicable.

 

They also lied about a couple of things.

 

1) That someone had called Brighton Council saying I no longer lived at my current address. The council have admitted this is a lie.

 

2) I said initially he should have sent a letter warning me.

He replied that his visit WAS the letter.

He then said that JTR had sent two letters.

And now the council have told me they are claiming they sent ONE letter.

All lies, no letters were sent.

I asked for proof, they have not provided any.

 

I am not sure they were acting legally,

and I am sure he did many things wrong.

 

He didn't tell me he was recording me,

he didn't back off when told my wife was pregnant,

he had no paperwork, etc etc.

 

I am now starting a stage 2 complaint with the council and would love to be able to quote law about what he did wrong.

 

Can anyone advise me what I should be doing?

 

Thanks

 

Dai

Edited March 6, 2014 by daivernon

[fkofilee]

Hi Dai

 

Slightly disappointed with this. Regarding him entering the property. He did it peacefully as you left the door unlocked... While this is not necsecarilly your fault, In some situations this is considered peaceful entry although it doesnt look it in certain views.

 

Why did you not pay the council direct? You can always do this and not get fobbed off to the Company that turns up "Claiming" to be acting on their behalf.

 

You need to check his fees carefully, seems to me slightly overpriced... As for the complaint, keep it easy and straight to the point. Let them know you are unhappy. etc,

[daivernon]

Yes, it was stupid of me to leave the door unlocked. But I think legally it was peaceful entry, but I was under the impressions they had to bring copies of liability orders etc.

 

I tried to pay the council direct, but they refused.

 

The fees seem exorbitant to me. But, I had hoped he had acted unlawfully, esp regards no paperwork, recording me without telling me, and ignoring my wife's pregnancy.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[fkofilee]

Yes you should have been preinformed. If they didnt do so or letter wasnt provided then you may have some ammo. How bad are the arrears / outstanding?

[daivernon]

Thanks for replying.

 

The council sent me a letter, but JTR didn't. What galls me is the lies. First he said no letter was sent, then two letters, now one letter. I asked for proof, none has been sent in 4 weeks.

 

It's about 700 and I can pay it all now, I just don't want to pay anything other than the £24 whatever it is they can charge for a visit.

[fkofilee]

I understand, as far as disputing the charges and the legal element, youll need to bare with us here as some of the better guys will be along to assist where possible.

[daivernon]

More than happy to wait, the Council has instructed JTR to pause the process while the complaint is investigated.

 

Thanks so much, it's wonderful to have this forum!

[ploddertom]

Moved to Bailiff Forum

[daivernon]

Moved to Bailiff Forum

 

Sorry! There are so many sections here I wasn't really sure where to post it. My bad! Thanks for tidying it up!

[ploddertom]

Sorry! There are so many sections here I wasn't really sure where to post it. My bad! Thanks for tidying it up!

 

Easily done but like all things if you know where it is or where it goes then it's simple.

 

You need some proper info to move forward with this. You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

 

The chances are the Council will come back and find no fault with the Bailiffs usually because they take everything at face value they say.

[ploddertom]

You also need some info from the Bailiffs, use something like this and send initially by email followed by a letter in the post.

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme Bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

[daivernon]

Hee hee! I love your tone!

 

Thing is, and I know nothing, but, I'm not disputing the debt at all. I owe it. I was having some problems and just ignored it. Stupid? Sure.

 

So the debt is accurate, just the bloody bailiff fees is what is annoying me. And I am seeing if I can get out of them.

 

As the entire thing was recorded, the lies JTR told will be also recorded.

 

If the bailiff has to write first and didn't, then I have a chance with that. If they are meant to bring liability orders etc, then I have a chance with that. If they ignored the preggers wife thing, I have a chance with that etc.

 

I am not suggesting for a split second your advice is incorrect, just filling in some more details.

 

Thanks so much

 

Dai

[ploddertom]

The Bailiff does not have to write to tell you he is coming before any visit takes place. The only thing he needs to bring with him is an Authority from the Council to say he is working on their behalf - unless asked for at time of visit he does not need to automatically produce anything. He would not have known your wife was expecting before he visited and to claim vulnerability you need to provide proof of same - letter from medical professional - and copy should be sent to the Council.

 

I appreciate it sounds as if I am supporting the Bailiff but I'm not, just telling it how it is. Have you checked to see if his Certificate is current?

[dx100uk]

levy Charge: £58

Enforcement fee: £150

 

no such things as an enforcement fee

 

cant levy and charge attendance fee on the same visit.

 

so I think he can just charge whatever the CORRECT levy fee should be. inly

 

dx

[daivernon]

The Bailiff does not have to write to tell you he is coming before any visit takes place. The only thing he needs to bring with him is an Authority from the Council to say he is working on their behalf - unless asked for at time of visit he does not need to automatically produce anything. He would not have known your wife was expecting before he visited and to claim vulnerability you need to provide proof of same - letter from medical professional - and copy should be sent to the Council.

 

I appreciate it sounds as if I am supporting the Bailiff but I'm not, just telling it how it is. Have you checked to see if his Certificate is current?

 

Oh I don't think you're supporting them at all! Just telling me how it is and I appreciate that.

[daivernon]

levy Charge: £58

Enforcement fee: £150

 

no such things as an enforcement fee

 

cant levy and charge attendance fee on the same visit.

 

so I think he can just charge whatever the CORRECT levy fee should be. inly

 

dx

 

Ah, that is interesting. Any links for this? I want to send to Council.

 

Thanks!

[tomtubby]

daivernon

 

I have read through your thread twice and the advice that you have been given above is correct.

 

Gaining entry:

The bailiff would have no difficulty proving that he had gained 'peaceful entry' into the property so this part of your complaint would be a non starter.

 

Vulnerability...wife pregnant:

 

The National Standards of Enforcement Agent states that a pregnant woman "might be potentially vulnerable".

 

If for instance a very heavily pregnant debtor was at home on her own and the bailiff visited then in almost all cases that I have ever come across the bailiff will withdraw from the premises. Being pregnant is not in itself grounds for 'vulnerability' and each case must be taken individually. However, the responsibility for advising the debtor that your wife was pregnant rests with you. Was your wife in the property at the time of the bailiff visit? Also, how many weeks pregnant is your wife?

 

Levy fee:

 

The levy fee appears correct.

 

Enforcement fee:

The statutory fee scale does NOT allow for an 'enforcement fee'. In reality, the bailiff is really charging you an 'attending to remove' fee of £150.

 

For many years one particular bailiff company routinely charged an 'enforcement fee' to debtors accounts and when questioned....removed the fee. Sadly, in the past 3 years or so the charging of a 'van fee'/ 'attending to remove fee' or 'enforcement fee' is now routinely charged by every company and the only difference is the actual amount charged. In your case £150 and another debtor on another thread is being charged £230.

 

In fact, an 'ATR' fee appears to now be charged in approx 85% of all cases...and yet..goods are only actually removed in less than 0.5% of all cases. You try working that one out !!!!

 

Unfortunately, the bailiff company will argue that their 'intention' was to remove goods. It is a worrying element of bailiff fees and sadly the way in which the regulations were written allows bailiff to 'interpret' the regulations in such a way as to provide justification for the charging of this fee.

 

You are taking the correct route in seeking a resolution by complaining to the local authority. Many people are tempted to issue litigation against the local authority or bailiff company. However, to date there is not a single case as evidence of a debtor winning in court.

 

PS: Sadly, there is no evidence either of one sucessful Form 4 Complaint !!

[dx100uk]

thanks TT

 

dx