Employer not followed company policy on absence...

[chinna]

Hi, I have received a warning for absence even though I did not trigger the short-term persistent absence policy. Was off in Mar 2013 referred to occupational health, had Pysio sessions who recommended I get referred to a knee surgeon. Which I did then was told that I needed surgery. Informed company was seen by Occ health before surgery then regular during rehab every 2 weeks.

Went back to work at return to work was told that I had triggered the absence policy over 5% for the 52-week period and there would be a disciplinary hearing. Where I told them take into consideration the underlying health condition that I have. Was told that they are there to manage the policy and not reasons why. Gave me a warning.

Got advice told to appeal. Went to appeal today told them that in the past when I had same operation, I was told that it would be managed under the long-term ill health procedure of the company. Which it was. At appeal, they asked me what I thought company policy was explained long term managed on capability short term triggers more performance related. Explained to them that line manager not followed company policy should have got advice from Occ health (as their policy) or at the return to work. Told them to look at minutes from meeting to see what the manager based his decision on. And the disciplinary action letter showing the warning.

Explained that if absence is above 4 weeks it would be managed long-term ill health as their policy. The appeal manager did not say anything. Then he goes he needs to check information sent from occ health to my manager. Told him at no time did manager base decision on occ health advice look at minutes from meeting. Not told anything about if the appeals been adjourned or if it is going to be rescheduled. It was not even a re hearing it was an appeal I thought they were supposed to review the evidence used by the manager and let me give any views on any new evidence.

Any views or advice. Thanks.

[Emmzzi]

When you say "got advice", who from?

[chinna]

When you say "got advice", who from?

 

The company's own employee assistance program. They give legal advice.

[Emmzzi]

When was your appeal hearing? A week or so to consider evidence is not unusual.

[chinna]

When was your appeal hearing? A week or so to consider evidence is not unusual.

 

Appeal was yesterday. They took 20 days to hear the appeal. Now that they have heard the appeal they want to get more evidence form occ health. Even though I have told them that the manager did not base any decisions on occ health advice. I have also told them that do you really need that information considering that your own policy says 4 weeks of sickness will be managed under the long term ill health procedure which does not have any disciplinary action and is managed on capability. I was off for 2 months after the knee surgery.

[Emmzzi]

I think their actions sound reasonable, personally. They haven't decided anything yet?

[chinna]

I think their actions sound reasonable, personally. They haven't decided anything yet?

 

Yes they have not decided anything.

Maybe you are right but my point to them was that you dont need the occ health info as your own policy shows the manager has not followed it. The only thing that the employee assistance legal team said today was that their appeal process was odd. Its just the stress of it.

Thanks for your advice.

Edited February 6, 2014 by chinna

[Emmzzi]

best to have a proper OH report and get a proper decision

[chinna]

Thought would post update has this maybe could help someone else in the future.

 

Had another meeting to discuss the outcome from the original Appel meeting 3 weeks ago, today. The appeal manager started off with that he thinks the line manager has followed the policy then asked my view on his decision when I said they have not followed company policy, and it's clear has I read the policy out. He started to go on about something else that was not related to the disciplinary action. Told him that has no relevance to current matter. Then he goes he has to adjourn. Did for 40 minutes, calls me back in then goes he has to postpone the meeting to look at the advice from occ health. Which was why he rescheduled 3 weeks ago, told him you have that info. What an odd process. So it's going to be 6 weeks this week when I handed in my appeal letter.

[Emmzzi]

argh! you are getting paid, aren't you?

[chinna]

argh! you are getting paid, aren't you?

 

Thanks. Am still at work, am appealing a warning that was given 2 months ago. That I received after I had an operation. Which the company knew about before I had the operation.

[Emmzzi]

ok, all good. sounds like they are trying to find a dignified way to back down - may take a while!!

[chinna]

ok, all good. sounds like they are trying to find a dignified way to back down - may take a while!!

Hope you are right but the way it comes across is they will do everything to back the manager even when they know he's not followed policy.

[happyhelper]

Hope you are right but the way it comes across is they will do everything to back the manager even when they know he's not followed policy.

 

Chinna - sorry to hear about your troubles. Not uncommon to hear gripes about protracted appeals ; they are generally a farce. If the appeal chairperson upholds your appeal(s) then you deserve praise. That said, I'd be somewhat surprised. Apparently only say up to 5% of employee appeals are upheld. IMO the only way for appeals to be fair would be for an independent free at point of service body ,such as ACAS, to chair the appeal. This may involve a lot of public resource, but at the same time it may reduce the # of claims being presented to the Employment Tribunals. Sadly, such a solution is not seen as being business friendly and thus employers will continue to allegedly abuse the appeal process.

 

BTW have you contacted ACAS ? Their helpline # is 08457 47 47 47. It's a free and confidential service. I would always recommend speaking to ACAS as a first point of reliable contact. I think your situation is a matter upon which ACAS should be well qualified to offer you some helpful step by step guidance.

 

Is your employer acting lawfully ? That's a matter of opinion, and opinions differ widely. Only a Judge can decide. For what it's worth I'd say that to date your employer may be pushing the boundaries. That said, without the full facts and circumstances it would be impossible for a CAGGER to form a reliable opinion.

Edited February 24, 2014 by stu007
removing criticisme of CAGGERS

[chinna]

Chinna - sorry to hear about your troubles. Not uncommon to hear gripes about protracted appeals ; they are generally a farce. If the appeal chairperson upholds your appeal(s) then you deserve praise. That said, I'd be somewhat surprised. Apparently only say up to 5% of employee appeals are upheld. IMO the only way for appeals to be fair would be for an independent free at point of service body ,such as ACAS, to chair the appeal. This may involve a lot of public resource, but at the same time it may reduce the # of claims being presented to the Employment Tribunals. Sadly, such a solution is not seen as being business friendly and thus employers will continue to allegedly abuse the appeal process.

 

BTW have you contacted ACAS ? Their helpline # is 08457 47 47 47. It's a free and confidential service. Some CAGGERS criticise ACAS, but I feel such criticism is not warranted. I would always recommend speaking to ACAS as a first point of reliable contact. I think your situation is a matter upon which ACAS should be well qualified to offer you some helpful step by step guidance.

 

Is your employer acting lawfully ? That's a matter of opinion, and opinions differ widely. Only a Judge can decide. For what it's worth I'd say that to date your employer may be pushing the boundaries. That said, without the full facts and circumstances it would be impossible for a CAGGER to form a reliable opinion.

 

Thanks for taking time out to respond. Yes I have contacted acas and they did say that their appeal process was odd and not following their code but the company didn't have too. That was after the first appeal meeting. If they thought the correct policy had been followed by the manager, they would have just said that in the first meeting. But they wanted to further investigate, which they did. And now after starting the meeting today saying he has investigated proper, he says he needs to do more investigation. When in front of him he has reasons the decision was made by the line manager. I said to him it's an appeal not a re hearing.

[chinna]

Received a invitation to a 3rd appeal meeting to review investigation findings. 8 weeks after appeal handed in, thought this time they would inform me of decision in letter.

[Grotesque]

-what happened to happyhelper? His posts seem to have been generally inoffensive.

[smokejumper]

I agree with some of happyhelpers points on an independant body, not acas though.

[Grotesque]

Ah, but where is he now

[smokejumper]

I see what you mean now, why was he banned.

[Emmzzi]

Hi Chinna - just means they are taking it seriously. When is the meeting? I will cross my fingers for you!

[fwog]

Hope you are right but the way it comes across is they will do everything to back the manager even when they know he's not followed policy.

I had similar when a manager totally overridden OH advice on a staged return to work after I had cancer. As soon as someone was off, it was business as usual. OH said once they're off site, there's little they can do to police it, save just me walking off the job. Much of the OH advice will be interpreted by a manager, in many cases ,a manager will not take OH seriously, so I'd guess you have a good case to pursue

[chinna]

Hi,

 

I had the meeting and the company does not need to follow its own absence policy, as its "standard management practice" to issue warnings for absence over certain %. Will post later as still shocked.

[chinna]

Hi, went to the 3rd appeal meeting, the decision was read from the letter that I was given at the end, I could not comment on any evidence as the decision was already made, was told its "standard management practice" to issue warnings for absence levels even though the policy says different,

 

 

Was told the the appeal manager had consulted HR speclists in how the policy is applied in practice. They lied, said different in the previous appeal meetings and this would have ended after the first appeal meeting if this was the case. They tried to find something they could back the manager with, they couldnt so planned the meeting so I could not raise any thing as they couldnt really adjoun it for a 3rd time.

Just a shame that they get away with this discimination as this was the end of their internal process.

[Grotesque]

Was told the the appeal manager had consulted HR speclists in how the policy is applied in practice. They lied, said different in the previous appeal meetings and this would have ended after the first appeal meeting if this was the case.

 

Minuted?