Help! HMRC being horrendous

[moneycantbuyyoulove]

Shaking as I type this. HMRC have just charged me a penalty for their own mistake. Basically they ignored my letters stating that my childcare had gone down, then demanded a repayment. I wrote appealing the repayment. They passed my complaint on to the disputes department (whatever the difference is).

 

Then this morning I wake up to a letter demanding a penalty of £1500 or so stating that I had been negligent in not telling them about the change to my childcare.

 

Surely if I have sent them all my letters AND my proofs of posting showing them that I have written to them, then I haven't been negligent?

 

I guess this is a pre-emptive attack / counter claim to try and wriggle out of cancelling the overpayment because THEY have been negligent. A kind of attack is the best form of defence.

 

So stressed about this now. Can't even afford to pay back the overpayment, let alone this. What do I do?

[wiseajak]

Hi

 

As far as i know if uv made every effort and can prove that u have informed them of the change of circumstance and they still persist you can simply tell them that they have made an official error.

Meaning they cannot ask for monies paid to you by mistake if uv notified them of the change. I believe thats how it goes. Its their hick up and uv made them aware of it.

 

Try CAB and hang around as more people with better knowledge should be along to help soon.

[blondebubbles]

Shaking as I type this. HMRC have just charged me a penalty for their own mistake. Basically they ignored my letters stating that my childcare had gone down, then demanded a repayment. I wrote appealing the repayment. They passed my complaint on to the disputes department (whatever the difference is).

 

Then this morning I wake up to a letter demanding a penalty of £1500 or so stating that I had been negligent in not telling them about the change to my childcare.

 

Surely if I have sent them all my letters AND my proofs of posting showing them that I have written to them, then I haven't been negligent?

 

I guess this is a pre-emptive attack / counter claim to try and wriggle out of cancelling the overpayment because THEY have been negligent. A kind of attack is the best form of defence.

 

So stressed about this now. Can't even afford to pay back the overpayment, let alone this. What do I do?

 

Just a few questions to try and help.

When did your childcare change? Then when did you inform them?

Did you call them to tell them or write to them?

Did you get a new award notice after the change?

Is the £1500 the overpayment or a penalty over and above the overpayment?

 

As you are disagreeing that you owe the money, this counts as a dispute rather than a complaint. It's a dedicated team who deal with it. The complaint team are more there if you had a problem with a staff member, procedure etc. Even if disputing the overpayment, they will still ask you to set up a repayment plan.

[jackieandwayne]

I wrote to the DWP in summer 2010, kept the proof of postage. I was telling them, as I had told the staff at the jobcentre (and watched the woman log in the information), that I was also in receipt of a private pension. Well, they kept paying me until earlier this year a compliance officer came to see me. I apologised that I did not have all the paperwork he wanted as I had sent it all to the DWP three years ago, and they never returned it to me. I was able to show him the copy of the letter I sent with it all.

 

He was ever so nice, "oh dear" he said "I know you've already lost one lot of paperwork through us, but would you trust me personally to take away what you have left?" I let him do this and he returned it the next day.

 

Then my benefits were stopped. So I rang this guy to ask what was going on, and he said I had to telephone a certain department, and they would explain fully, and he said "but this is not your fault, it is our error and we will just have to write off the overpayment" I duly telephoned this particular office, and they were sugary sweet with me, assured me that I should not bother one jot about the £7K overpayment and I would never hear about it again! And I never have heard a thing since, except a statement setting out what I should of been getting and what I would get in future.

 

So, I am jammy I suppose, but the point is, if they have made a mistake and you can prove it, then I don't believe you have to repay it. That is if DWP and HMRC work on the same principles.

 

I hope you get it sorted, what a worry for you.

[moneycantbuyyoulove]

Thanks JackieandWayne, on the phone to hmrc as we speak, being told it's my problem... Have been referred to a manager, manager says to speak to someone else... someone else is engaged... Hmrc have already accepted that I cannot afford to pay anything towards the debt, still don't want another £1430 added to a debt of £7k that I shouldn't owe them anyway.

[moneycantbuyyoulove]

Just a few questions to try and help.

When did your childcare change? Then when did you inform them?

Did you call them to tell them or write to them?

Did you get a new award notice after the change?

Is the £1500 the overpayment or a penalty over and above the overpayment?

 

As you are disagreeing that you owe the money, this counts as a dispute rather than a complaint. It's a dedicated team who deal with it. The complaint team are more there if you had a problem with a staff member, procedure etc. Even if disputing the overpayment, they will still ask you to set up a repayment plan.

 

Hi Blondebubbles thanks so much for your reply (for some reason cag isn't sending me notifications of replies, so I've only just seen it). My childcare changed on 21st November 2012 and I wrote to say so but I cannot find the letter. They say I wrote on 3rd May. I believe I wrote 3 times over the course of that year. I then thought that since they hadn't responded to my letters the money must be child tax credit not childcare element so I spent it. (I'm not very good with finances and I suffer from bipolar disorder which makes me very scatterbrained). I didn't get a new award notice. I heard nothing. They have asked for the overpayment back - can't remember offhand how much but in the region of £7k I think. They have now asked for a further £1430 back.

[blondebubbles]

Hi Blondebubbles thanks so much for your reply (for some reason cag isn't sending me notifications of replies, so I've only just seen it). My childcare changed on 21st November 2012 and I wrote to say so but I cannot find the letter. They say I wrote on 3rd May. I believe I wrote 3 times over the course of that year. I then thought that since they hadn't responded to my letters the money must be child tax credit not childcare element so I spent it. (I'm not very good with finances and I suffer from bipolar disorder which makes me very scatterbrained). I didn't get a new award notice. I heard nothing. They have asked for the overpayment back - can't remember offhand how much but in the region of £7k I think. They have now asked for a further £1430 back.

 

I understand your position but at the same time, if they didn't receive your initial letter, it isn't their error either and the fact would remain that you did receive money you weren't due. I'm not saying I don't believe you did write but without proof anyone could say that.

 

If they received your letter 6 months after the change then that can't amount to £7000. Are you sure nothing else happened.

 

If you cannot deal with finances maybe you should consider having a friend or family member act as an intermediary for you so they can call on your behalf. It really is the easiest way to update your tax credits. That way hopefully you won't find yourself in this position again.

[jackieandwayne]

I think we need to ascertain what the rules are regarding overpayments due to HMRC error. In that, is it the same as the situation I found myself in with DWP?

 

I don't know the answer to this one, but if we discover the rules are the same, then stand your ground with them.

 

Lets hope someone can put us straight on this question, and see what can be done from there.

[blondebubbles]

I think we need to ascertain what the rules are regarding overpayments due to HMRC error. In that, is it the same as the situation I found myself in with DWP?

 

I don't know the answer to this one, but if we discover the rules are the same, then stand your ground with them.

 

Lets hope someone can put us straight on this question, and see what can be done from there.

 

The difference is in your case you had proof and based on the information so far there is no evidence to suggest HMRC error.

 

I suggest you go to HMRC's site and read the COP26. This is HMRCs guidance on overpayment. Sorry they will not allow me to post the link.

[moneycantbuyyoulove]

Blondebubbles you aren't allowed to have an intermediary with hmrc. I have tried. I will have to find the letter. It must be somewhere!

[blondebubbles]

Yes you can or I wouldn't have suggested it. You need a form TC689

[moneycantbuyyoulove]

Just gone back through my letters. The issue is that I never asked for the childcare money in the first place. I had cancelled my childcare claim with them the year before, and didn't know that they were paying me it because I got other payments from them and assumed that this was one of those. Surely they can't say it's my fault when they spontaneously decided to pay me??

[blondebubbles]

Sorry I'm not understanding. Are you saying you never told them you had childcare? Or are you still referring to the fact you wrote to them in November 2012?

 

Ift does show on your award notices when childcare is included and how much the costs are.

[jackieandwayne]

Did you hand write it or type it up on the computer? Is it worth doing a search on the computer for it?

[moneycantbuyyoulove]

Found it! My partner has advised that I write down a timeline for every thing that has happened, which is proving a good call, if possibly the most tedious thing I have ever had to do. I wrote to them in April 2012 confirming that my childcare costs had gone down to £48 for the year. I then wrote again in November 12 and May 13 reconfirming this. I never told them my childcare costs had gone up again!

[jackieandwayne]

Oh well done for finding it. Lets hope the guys on here can help a bit further.

[blondebubbles]

Now you have this information I suggest you complete another dispute form.

 

I would say though that just because you have this information does not mean you will win. If you have no proof and HMRC did not receive your letters then it is not their error. I understand from your point that you feel it is not yours either but you still received a lot of money you weren't due.

 

If you are unsuccessful then the next step is to go to citizens advice. Good luck.

[jackieandwayne]

Yes, but you give it your best shot and do your best.

 

I felt very uncomfortable about my not having to repay my overpayment, but then after some thought, if you are given an amount of money and told everything is in order, then you will live within (well, we ought to LOL) those means. If you have done everything correctly on your side, and it is their own stupidity, I think it is very unfair to land you with an overpayment.

 

I'm talking specifically about this sort of thing, not people who actually realise they are getting more than they should and deliberately ignore it and so on. Because I would hope, since it is public money, that mistakes on this level don't happen a lot. Now someone will come along and assure me that they do!