Moved to Ireland from UK - Lloyds TSB / Westcot Threatening Letters

[DebtFree123]

Hi,

 

My mother owes Lloyds TSB £4,000 for a Credit Card and £6,500 for a Bank Account.

 

She moved to Ireland in September 2012 to retire as my father has alzheimer's disease, and it's a better quality of life over there. She has high blood pressure and suffers from stress which Lloyds TSB are aware of.

 

I'm a student studying at University and have promised to help her deal with the constant letters to try and reduce her stress levels. The letters are being re-directed by Royal Mail from our old address to my University address.

 

She has not informed Lloyds TSB or Westcot that she has moved abroad, as I don't want any letters being sent to her, so I'm trying to deal with them myself but have got confused about what to do next.

 

I believe her debt issues started around 13 years ago.

 

During May 2013, I sent Lloyds TSB an Income & Expenditure form and agree a payment of £1/month, however as I had exams during this time I completely forgot to set this up.

 

On 26th July 2013, Lloyds TSB passed both debts over to Westcot and I have received a number of letters from them since for both debts. The first was a 'Notice of Debt Collection' and the second a 'Final Notice' threatening further action on 11th August 2013. The 'Final Notice' stated that after investigating they have confirmed that my mother still lives in the old property, however this is not true.

 

I have not contacted Westcot as of yet.

 

A few weeks ago, Lloyds TSB sent me some statements after speaking to them on the phone. One shows a number of payments from 07/10/2010 to 06/08/2012 of £28 per month. The other was on some paper that looked dated, with some statements dated from the year 2000.

 

What should I do next?

 

Thanks

[citizenB]

So these debts are your Mother's and you are acting as her 3rd party agent.

 

When you say there is a £6,500 debt for a "Bank Account" is this a loan or overdraft ?

 

Do you know if there are any penalty /default charges on the credit card ?

 

Was there any Payment protection Insurance on the credit card.

 

It looks like LTSB still retain ownership of the account and Wescott are simply acting as Debt Collection Agents.

 

I will try and find someone who can advise further.

[DebtFree123]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

So these debts are your Mother's and you are acting as her 3rd party agent.

 

Yes exactly, trying to help her get this sorted

 

When you say there is a £6,500 debt for a "Bank Account" is this a loan or overdraft ?

 

I believe it's for a loan, because in one of the letters from Lloyds TSB it states :

 

Account Number: xxxxxx

Loan Provided: Unavailable

Loan Amount: Unavailable

Interest Rate: 0%

Term of Agreement: Unavailable

Opening Balance: £7,000 ish

 

I'll try and double check, if it is not a loan and an overdraft instead, is there different ways to deal with it?

 

Do you know if there are any penalty /default charges on the credit card ?

 

How do I go about finding this out?

 

Was there any Payment protection Insurance on the credit card.

 

Yes, I remember my mother receive a refund from Lloyds around a year ago, however she's unsure as to whether that was for the loan or credit card?

 

It looks like LTSB still retain ownership of the account and Wescott are simply acting as Debt Collection Agents.

 

So should I contact them and ask them for more time?

[citizenB]

Righto if it is a loan that is good as you can reclaim any charges - when you say Mother was given a refund, did she reclaim the PPI ? If so, then it couldn't have been much if the balance being pursued is still pretty much the same as the opening balance ?

 

If it were an overdraft, then there would be no chance of reclaiming any default charges

 

You would need to send a Subject Access Request to LTSB - this will cost £10.00 and they have 40 calendar days to comply. You will be requiring ALL data in respect of your Mother's financial relationship with the bank. There is a draft letter in the CAG library - top left hand side of the screen - highlighted in Green.

 

You could in the meantime write a letter to Wescot advising you believe there is mis sold PPI and unlawful charges added to both these accounts and that you are asking them to cease collection activity until you are able to look into this further.

 

Hopefully others will also look in and offer some advice for you.

 

Just one other question. When was the last payment made to either of these accounts ?

[DebtFree123]

Righto if it is a loan that is good as you can reclaim any charges - when you say Mother was given a refund, did she reclaim the PPI ? If so, then it couldn't have been much if the balance being pursued is still pretty much the same as the opening balance ?

 

If it were an overdraft, then there would be no chance of reclaiming any default charges

 

You would need to send a Subject Access Request to LTSB - this will cost £10.00 and they have 40 calendar days to comply. You will be requiring ALL data in respect of your Mother's financial relationship with the bank. There is a draft letter in the CAG library - top left hand side of the screen - highlighted in Green.

 

You could in the meantime write a letter to Wescot advising you believe there is mis sold PPI and unlawful charges added to both these accounts and that you are asking them to cease collection activity until you are able to look into this further.

 

Hopefully others will also look in and offer some advice for you.

 

Just one other question. When was the last payment made to either of these accounts ?

 

She cannot remember the full situation as it was many years ago. All that she is sure of is that she received a refund for a PPI claim in August 2011, but is unsure as to whether that was for the loan/overdraft or credit card.

 

How do I go about finding out what this was for and whether she is entitled to more refunds of charges?

 

Will a Subject Access Request show everything despite the length of time since the debt started?

 

I believe the last payment of £28.00 was made on 06/08/2012, is this important?

 

Should she inform either Lloyds TSB or Westcot that she has moved abroad to Ireland?

 

I'll send off those letters first thing tomorrow.

 

Thanks for your help so far!

[DebtFree123]

Is it worth sending a CCA request letter to Westcot as well?

[citizenB]

With regards to establishing the date of last payments - yes, important in that if there has been a 6 year time where no payments or liability has been acknowledged the debt becomes statue barred - uncollectable via courts. This does not appear to be the case here.

 

IMHO, I would address any letters to LTSB (Head Office address) and send copies to Wescott for their information.

 

I see no harm in advising LTSB that your Mother has moved - it will prevent importan letters going astray or them saying they sent to the last known address. Although you should probably still insist that these letters are sent care of your address so that your Mother is not unduly stressed.

 

I have sent out S.O.S for you, for others to look in.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

How old is the debt?BTW Living in the Irish Republic will not prevent court action if appropriaye.

[Peterbard]

Hi Debtfree

 

Good advice, you need to find out exactly what kind of loan this is, as this will influence the best action to take.

 

Have they been receiving any notices of arrears or default notices from the bank ? also where about in Ireland have they moved to , this may be relevant.

[DebtFree123]

Thank you for everyone's replies.

 

This is taking a huge burden off my shoulder speaking to people who know that they are talking about.

 

I've sent the following letter to:

 

Lloyds TSB,

DSAR Unit,

Customer Service Recovery,

Charlton Place, C57,

Andover,

SP10 1RE

 

as well as to Westcot for their reference.

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: Account number: xxxxxxx & xxxxxxx

 

In the first part under the Data Protection Act 1998:

 

Under the Data Protection Act 1984 and 1998, and including the right of subject access under these acts, please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to the above accounts held with you since they were opened.

 

Additionally where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply data relating to manual intervention because there has been no such manual intervention then please be kind as to confirm this in your response to this request.

 

For the avoidance of any and all doubt, I reiterate:

 

I hereby request that you supply me with any and all historical data in your possession which, in any way appertains to me, including (but not exhaustively) a copy of the original signed executed agreement; statements of account; duplicate statements and/or print outs of all account transactions; all internal and external correspondence sent or received by you including memo’s, logs, notes, screen prints and transcripts; notes of manual interventions such as telephone attendants' notes, copies of stored telephone conversations, internal and external emails; any other information held on any/all types of media in any relevant filing system (microfiche included).

 

If you have disclosed any information to a third party (with or without my express permission), will you please include details of this in your reply, along with notes of any legal action passed or pending (to include a true copy of default notices, court orders and the like).

 

Where any information that you provide includes any charges, for example returned payments, late payment fees, and so forth, would you please advise your breakdown of actual costs (liquidated damages) incurred for each charge, and the Term or Condition on which you rely upon to claim such a charge.

 

I also require that you forward, within the above mentioned time scale, a true copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10.00 to access ALL data held by Lloyds TSB about myself. You should be fully aware of your statutory obligations under the Data Protection Act and that any failure to comply with this request will involve a complaint to the ICO as well as potential legal action.

 

You have 40 days in which to comply with this request.

 

This communication has been sent Recorded Delivery so I can ensure compliance on these issues within the legislative timeframes.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

Enc:

Postal Order for £10. Specifically for DPA/SAR request – not to be credited to any account

[DebtFree123]

Hi Debtfree

 

Good advice, you need to find out exactly what kind of loan this is, as this will influence the best action to take.

 

Have they been receiving any notices of arrears or default notices from the bank ? also where about in Ireland have they moved to , this may be relevant.

 

The loan was taken out from advise by the bank to pay off the credit card. I'm unsure of any other details relating to the loan, will the Subject Access Request show this?

 

The debt is around 13 years old now.

 

My mother informed me that she received notices of arrears or default notices in 2000 before the account was closed and interest frozen on advise from CCCS.

 

What's the next stage after receiving a reply in 40 days?

[citizenB]

Great, once you receive the information requested let us know and we can advise what you should be looking for. So the loan was taken out to consolidate another of the bank's debts ? This should show on the communication logs and other information you will be provided with.

 

If you should receive any other communication from either LTSB or Wescot, then just let us know

[DebtFree123]

Great, once you receive the information requested let us know and we can advise what you should be looking for. So the loan was taken out to consolidate another of the bank's debts ? This should show on the communication logs and other information you will be provided with.

 

If you should receive any other communication from either LTSB or Wescot, then just let us know

 

Thanks again for your reply. I've just been sorting through the paperwork and found out that I sent a Subject Access Request in April 2011.

 

Is it worth sending another one or not, to find out what the PPI refund was for?

 

I've uploaded the letter I received back to the request in April 2011, and all my mother received was documents dated from year 2000 after the account had been closed, which failed to show the transactions when the account was open.

 

My mother has also managed to find the original loan agreements, which shows she had three loans which were taken out to pay the credit card.

 

She cannot find the original credit card agreement.

 

What's the next stage from here? I'm happy to upload all the documents that she has received if you need to have a look.

 

Thanks again for your help

[DebtFree123]

It doesn't seem to let me post any links/images, so I've had to put a few spaces in the link which need to be removed before you can view them

 

Letter received in April 2011 from Lloyds TSB DSAR Department -

 

http ://img23.imageshack.us/ img23/ 3244/ 8wrm.jpg

 

Basically says that they are unable to provide any statements for the bank accounts or loans taken out in 1993, 1995, 1997 as they were transferred to our Credit Operations department on 8/9/00.

 

Also unable to provide a copy of the original loan documents due to length of time, but I've found my copy and included them below.

 

No credit card statements held due to length to time, and unable to locate a copy of signed agreement, but they are confident they can find it if required.

 

First Loan Agreement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img46/ 9286/ 6ipz.jpg

 

Second Loan Agreement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img20/ 7622/ j7w7.jpg

 

Third Loan Agreement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img546/ 92/ rlbl.jpg

 

Proof of Loan Protection -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img812/ 9124/ exdx.jpg

 

Default Notice Loan -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img21/ 2065/ m3xj.jpg

 

Default Notice Overdraft -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img202/ 2186/ o0ur.jpg

 

BLS Full and Final Settlement Offer 2009 -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img825/ 1080/ e9fd.jpg

 

Payments Made 2008 to 2009 -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img593/ 4171/ xxl6.jpg

 

Example Credit Card statement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img16/ 7548/ ai9g.jpg

Edited August 22, 2013 by DebtFree123
Added more photos of documents

[DebtFree123]

It doesn't seem to let me post any links/images, so I've had to put a few spaces in the link which need to be removed before you can view them

 

Letter received in April 2011 from Lloyds TSB DSAR Department -

 

http ://img23.imageshack.us/ img23/ 3244/ 8wrm.jpg

 

Basically says that they are unable to provide any statements for the bank accounts or loans taken out in 1993, 1995, 1997 as they were transferred to our Credit Operations department on 8/9/00.

 

Also unable to provide a copy of the original loan documents due to length of time, but I've found my copy and included them below.

 

No credit card statements held due to length to time, and unable to locate a copy of signed agreement, but they are confident they can find it if required.

 

First Loan Agreement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img46/ 9286/ 6ipz.jpg

 

Second Loan Agreement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img20/ 7622/ j7w7.jpg

 

Third Loan Agreement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img546/ 92/ rlbl.jpg

 

Proof of Loan Protection -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img812/ 9124/ exdx.jpg

 

Default Notice Loan -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img21/ 2065/ m3xj.jpg

 

Default Notice Overdraft -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img202/ 2186/ o0ur.jpg

 

BLS Full and Final Settlement Offer 2009 -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img825/ 1080/ e9fd.jpg

 

Payments Made 2008 to 2009 -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img593/ 4171/ xxl6.jpg

 

Example Credit Card statement -

 

http ://imageshack.us/a/ img16/ 7548/ ai9g.jpg

 

Anybody able to help?

 

Thanks

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

There is no obligation to supply the agreement with a SAR.

[Peterbard]

The data controller should provide all information directly related to the data subject this should include the agreement, you can specify this in your request if you like to ensure.

 

There is a mistaken idea that the requirement to issue an agreement under the DPA is somehow influenced by the requirement to issue a copy document under the consumer credit act, it isn't, the two are entirely unrelated.

 

Also ti is important to find out where in Ireland your grandparents have moved to.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The ICO confirms that 'although they might expect an agreement to be supplies with a SAR, there is NO specific obligation to do so as this matter is covered in sections of CCA 1974 (as amended).

 

Whilst it MAY be considered 'personal' data, this type of document is provided to the data subject at the inception of the agreement.

 

This is why most creditors DO NOT supply an agreement with a Subject Access Request.

[Peterbard]

I mentioned this assertions to an ICO case worker a few weeks ago, after seeing it made previously.

He assured me that it was incorrect, when a section 10 request is assessed the case worker does not consider any other legislation , just the DPA, the person I spoke to said that he would not have a clue what the CCA required as it was not within their purview.

[citizenB]

Debt free, if you convert your images to pdf then you will be able to post them up. Follow the instructions below, or if you still have problems, let me know and I will provide you with an email address and I will post them up for you.

 

Dx100 – Instructions on uploading pdfs

Scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

as a picture file

remove all personal info including barcodes etc. using paint

but leave all figures and dates.

Go to one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

open a new message box here

hit go advanced below the message box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB: you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

Then hit reply button

 

 

[DebtFree123]

Thanks for your replies.

 

They have moved to Tipperary, Republic of Ireland.

 

I'll upload the PDF files tonight.

 

I'm confused about what you are saying about DPA? What's the next stage to do?

[Peterbard]

Thanks for your replies.

 

They have moved to Tipperary, Republic of Ireland.

 

I'll upload the PDF files tonight.

 

I'm confused about what you are saying about DPA? What's the next stage to do?

 

 

Don't worry about it just post the information you have for now and let us have a look at it.

[DebtFree123]

Don't worry about it just post the information you have for now and let us have a look at it.

 

Thanks, I've included everything in one PDF file so it's easier to read.

 

I'm concerned that Westcot will start further 'collection activity'? What does this consist of? Are they able to demand the full payment immediately/add any additional charges?

 

Like I mentioned previously, the documents from the Subject access request in April 2011.

 

Is it worth sending another one or not, to find out what the PPI refund was for?

 

I've uploaded the letter I received back to the request in April 2011, and all my mother received was documents dated from year 2000 after the account had been closed, which failed to show the transactions when the account was open.

 

My mother has also managed to find the original loan agreements, which shows she had three loans which were taken out to pay the credit card.

 

She cannot find the original credit card agreement.

[Peterbard]

Firstly i do not believe (contrary to what Brigadier says earlier in this thread) that an action can be brought in an Irish court for a consumer credit debt taken out in the UK.

A CCJ can only be obtained against a UK resident, if you are living outside the UK they cannot legally obtain one, although there are incidents where some creditors have obtained one using a previous known address, if this has happened it can easily be set aside

 

So we are looking at the usual collection tactics of DCA'a letters telephone call etc. If you want to act as intermediary for your parents and take the strain off them, you can notify the DCA of this and tell them that all correspondence must come to you, they are compelled to comply under OFT rules, as long as you send authority by the original debtor.

 

This may serve to take some of the strain off you parents whilst we look at the legality of the claims, I am still unable to see any of the paperwork you mention.

[DebtFree123]

Firstly i do not believe (contrary to what Brigadier says earlier in this thread) that an action can be brought in an Irish court for a consumer credit debt taken out in the UK.

A CCJ can only be obtained against a UK resident, if you are living outside the UK they cannot legally obtain one, although there are incidents where some creditors have obtained one using a previous known address, if this has happened it can easily be set aside

 

So we are looking at the usual collection tactics of DCA'a letters telephone call etc. If you want to act as intermediary for your parents and take the strain off them, you can notify the DCA of this and tell them that all correspondence must come to you, they are compelled to comply under OFT rules, as long as you send authority by the original debtor.

 

This may serve to take some of the strain off you parents whilst we look at the legality of the claims, I am still unable to see any of the paperwork you mention.

 

Sorry I forgot to add the attachment. Hopefully it works now.

 

Thanks

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46063[/ATTACH]

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46063[/ATTACH]

Edited August 25, 2013 by citizenB