Vodafone's marketing and appalling data network

[awsx123]

I live in central london and Vodafone's coverage map shows solid 3G coverage for this area, yet at best i receive 3G about 40% of the time, the rest of the time my data connection is EDGE or even for much of the time, just 1990's GPRS.

 

The network is so overloaded that even with 3G signal, actual internet access is not a given, but when on an edge or gprs signal (i.e. 60% of the time), a lack of internet connectivity is virtually guaranteed, since these arcane 1990's technologies are completely overloaded by all the modern smartphones in the cell trying to access high bandwidth modern internet services.

 

I have spent the past week in Devon, here a 3G signal is very hard to find anywhere, even EDGE is quite hard to find, usually nothing more is available than 1990's GPRS, which (being so totally overloaded) in practice offers zero internet connectivity of any sort.

 

Not merely have Vodafone completely oversold their network capacity such as to be selling internet connectivity that they don't actually possess, not merely have they lazily failed to take full advantage of more recent technologies (such as HSDPA rolled out in a truly nation wide fashion) which might rectify much of the problem, but that they also dishonestly market their service by claiming 3G connectivity in areas where there is no such connectivity, such as central London.

 

To make sure the problem was Vodafone and not my phone, I did some informal tests in walks around central london with 3 separate phones (HTC Touch HD, iPhone 4 and Samsung galaxy S3) - exact same results with all 3 phones.

 

I was quite shocked on a recent trip to Spain where immediately on arrival my phone was delivering fast, reliable 3G internet access seemingly everywhere I went. Why can't Vodafone UK manage the same level of service here?

[belfast4]

I live in central london and Vodafone's coverage map shows solid 3G coverage for this area, yet at best i receive 3G about 40% of the time, the rest of the time my data connection is EDGE or even for much of the time, just 1990's GPRS.

 

 

 

The network is so overloaded that even with 3G signal, actual internet access is not a given, but when on an edge or gprs signal (i.e. 60% of the time), a lack of internet connectivity is virtually guaranteed, since these arcane 1990's technologies are completely overloaded by all the modern smartphones in the cell trying to access high bandwidth modern internet services.

 

 

 

I have spent the past week in Devon, here a 3G signal is very hard to find anywhere, even EDGE is quite hard to find, usually nothing more is available than 1990's GPRS, which (being so totally overloaded) in practice offers zero internet connectivity of any sort.

 

 

 

Not merely have Vodafone completely oversold their network capacity such as to be selling internet connectivity that they don't actually possess, not merely have they lazily failed to take full advantage of more recent technologies (such as HSDPA rolled out in a truly nation wide fashion) which might rectify much of the problem, but that they also dishonestly market their service by claiming 3G connectivity in areas where there is no such connectivity, such as central London.

 

 

 

To make sure the problem was Vodafone and not my phone, I did some informal tests in walks around central london with 3 separate phones (HTC Touch HD, iPhone 4 and Samsung galaxy S3) - exact same results with all 3 phones.

 

 

 

I was quite shocked on a recent trip to Spain where immediately on arrival my phone was delivering fast, reliable 3G internet access seemingly everywhere I went. Why can't Vodafone UK manage the same level of service here?

 

 

 

 

Vodafone will soon be switching on there 4g network which will see a huge improvement for people who are having these problems. your signal will then be at full all the time. I don't know when this is going to happen but have been told quite soon.

[renegadeimp]

 

 

 

 

Vodafone will soon be switching on there 4g network which will see a huge improvement for people who are having these problems. your signal will then be at full all the time. I don't know when this is going to happen but have been told quite soon.

 

Only relevant if the phone supports 4G. Their purchase of low end frequency wont mean much at all, as it will still be very heavily overloaded. Even with the amount of low end they have now, most phones drop connection a lot. Adding an extra third of the spare one MAY boost it, but not when hundreds of thousands of other users will be using it too, coupled with more phones using the low end spectrum.

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[awsx123]

Vodafone will soon be switching on there 4g network which will see a huge improvement for people who are having these problems. your signal will then be at full all the time. I don't know when this is going to happen but have been told quite soon.

 

 

Can you direct me to the statement from Vodafone that states that they will be upgrading all (e.g. 100%) of their base station infrastructure nation-wide to support 4G?

 

They still haven't even upgraded most of their 1990's GPRS base stations to support EDGE, let alone 3G (itself now almost 10 years old), so why would their behaviour and strategy change now? Regarding 4G, i think the reasonable assumption is that it will be rolled out as patchy 4G coverage in selected population centres and then remain that way (the same as 3G in other words).

 

Also, are you aware that existing technology (3G HSPA+) already offers similar maximum network speeds to 4G?

 

Unfortunately, faster underlying network technology is no guarantee of useable data transfer rates in a real-world circumstance that the network capacity has been completely over-sold. 4G won't fix it if the problem is Vodafone selling more capacity than they actually have, which very much seems to be the case.

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[renegadeimp]

Belfast4 left a lot of info out.

 

http://www.vodafone.co.uk/4g/ready-for-4g/

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[fkofilee]

There was a BBC watchdog article on this recently... Im with vodafone on this one as there is a limit to the amount of bandwidth you can supply in one area.

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[awsx123]

There was a BBC watchdog article on this recently... Im with vodafone on this one as there is a limit to the amount of bandwidth you can supply in one area.

 

Certainly there is a limit to the bandwidth it's possible to supply, but when Vodafone sell more bandwidth than they actually have, you are on their side with that?

 

If Vodafone have hard limits on the bandwidth they can provide (and they do) why are they selling more than that limit, why are they selling more than they actually have available to deliver?

 

If their network can serve a maximum of (say) 50Mb of data per customer per month, why are they selling each customer 500Mb?

 

How is it ethical and reasonable to sell something to someone that you don't actually have in the first place?

 

Can I sell you this really nice house? I don't actually have it, it's not mine to sell. But will you buy it from me?

 

Do you work for Vodafone?

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[locutus]

The numbers I saw when working for T-Mobile was that Vodafone provided an average of 0.8meg broadband within London City centre. A prolific downloader could get around 30 - 40 gig in a month with that speed.

 

Asking "do you work for Vodafone" is the base response when someone doesn't agree with your point of view is it?

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[awsx123]

The numbers I saw when working for T-Mobile was that Vodafone provided an average of 0.8meg broadband within London City centre. A prolific downloader could get around 30 - 40 gig in a month with that speed.

 

Asking "do you work for Vodafone" is the base response when someone doesn't agree with your point of view is it?

 

Alas, it is not a "point of view" that Vodafone advertise solid 3G connectivity throughout central london but in reality only provide (overloaded, unusable) GPRS connectivity much of the time - it is fact.

 

Likewise it is fact that Vodafone could do better right now - by providing what they advertise, namely 3G and not unusable GPRS. It is also fact that using the space division multiplex effect of microcells, they could in reality increase the capacity of the network in high usage areas if they wanted to. So I would say that the opinion that Vodafone are helpless to improve the situation is unreasonable.

 

And yes - whenever somebody tries to depreciate or ignore fact I'll always question their impartiality. Do you not realise that corporations pay people to post opinion to forums like this?

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[fkofilee]

Alas, it is not a "point of view" that Vodafone advertise solid 3G connectivity throughout central london but in reality only provide (overloaded, unusable) GPRS connectivity much of the time - it is fact.

 

Likewise it is fact that Vodafone could do better right now - by providing what they advertise, namely 3G and not unusable GPRS. It is also fact that using the space division multiplex effect of microcells, they could in reality increase the capacity of the network in high usage areas if they wanted to. So I would say that the opinion that Vodafone are helpless to improve the situation is unreasonable.

 

And yes - whenever somebody tries to depreciate or ignore fact I'll always question their impartiality. Do you not realise that corporations pay people to post opinion to forums like this?

 

Haha Sorry guys

 

No i dont work for Vodafone however i do love my mobile tech so i have to be clued up on these things

However a lot of your points are right... When Voda do sell more bandwidth then they actually have, it potentially could be deemed as a breach of sales etc,

 

 

Think of it like this, Vodafone supply you with a Data "Limit" , Now here is a classic argument of supply and demand etc,

Data hungry people... Ie Mob BB and Also Social Media Addicts / Videos Etc will take up most of that bandwidth.

 

Remember though all the network providers do have "It" however, each mast is split between those in the masts radius... London being the prime example... Vodafone will have a high density network there due to more demand from everyone while in say,

Norfolk somewhere itll be significantly different.

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[locutus]

You still need less than old dialup speed to download a gig in a month, and Vodafone do not have any great data packages AFAIK.

 

Coverage is never listed nor guaranteed in any mobile contract. Voda also have this "disclaimer" on their coverage prediction page.

 

Coverage may vary by location. This map shows a computer generated prediction of coverage in a given area. It should be used as a guide only and is not a guarantee of actual signal coverage.

 

 

Regarding 4G, the technology will benefit cities more, as the signal penetrates buildings better.

 

If you want to see the masts in your area, they can be found on http://sitefinder.ofcom.org.uk/search

 

I'm sure that will be updated when 4G masts are introduced

Edited August 5, 2013 by citizenB

[awsx123]

You still need less than old dialup speed to download a gig in a month, and Vodafone do not have any great data packages AFAIK.

 

Coverage is never listed nor guaranteed in any mobile contract. Voda also have this "disclaimer" on their coverage prediction page.

 

Regarding 4G, the technology will benefit cities more, as the signal penetrates buildings better.

 

If you want to see the masts in your area, they can be found on url

 

I'm sure that will be updated when 4G masts are introduced

 

 

OK, I am not sure you understand the difference between radio coverage and network capacity, the problem isn't the former, it's the latter. Sure, radio coverage cannot be guaranteed, but radio coverage is not the issue, Vodafone coverage (i.e. ability to receive a radio signal) is generally good - it's possible to make a call from most locations.

 

The issue is getting any data from the network even with a good signal available on my telephone. That's got nothing to do with radio coverage issues, it is solely due to the network being overloaded. That in turn is due to the fact that despite advertising solid 3G service in central London, in many spots only (overloaded, unusable) GPRS connectivity is available, and also that Vodafone have oversold their capacity.

 

It is true that with a dial-up speed connection you could theoretically download over 1Gb/month if you were prepared to spend your whole life trying to download data, but the evidence is that the Vodafone network speed would be far below even dial-up speed if people were successfully downloading anything like that amount. I rarely download more than 50Mb/month, not because I don't want to but because whenever I try to access the internet it's so slow I just give up. If my experience is normal in central London, it means that it's unlikely anyone is downloading much more than 50Mb/month, and yet the network is still completely overloaded.

 

Just tested the speed where I currently am (Brixham, Devon). 5 bars (good) signal available, gprs/edge signal available, so no coverage problem.

 

Data transfer rate: 25kb/sec. That was best case, I had to run the speed test app 3 times before I got any data, the first 2 attempts timed out the network was so slow.

 

25k is slower than dial-up! Less than half the speed.

[awsx123]

Just checked the Vodafone coverage map for my current postcode in Brixham, Vodafone claims it is "high speed". The whole of Brixham is shown as being either "high speed" or some areas as "variable speed", but in fact having spent much time here in the last year, I'd say the above results (network often so slow as to time out, best case around 25kb/sec) are the norm.

 

How is this reasonably marketed as "high speed"? Why can't Vodafone just be honest? Why can't they honestly report that the whole of Brixham is currently "slow speed"?

[locutus]

OK, I am not sure you understand the difference between radio coverage and network capacity, the problem isn't the former, it's the latter. Sure, radio coverage cannot be guaranteed, but radio coverage is not the issue, Vodafone coverage (i.e. ability to receive a radio signal) is generally good - it's possible to make a call from most locations.

 

The issue is getting any data from the network even with a good signal available on my telephone. That's got nothing to do with radio coverage issues, it is solely due to the network being overloaded. That in turn is due to the fact that despite advertising solid 3G service in central London, in many spots only (overloaded, unusable) GPRS connectivity is available, and also that Vodafone have oversold their capacity.

 

I think you're a little mixed up on your connections.

gprs/edge is around dial up speed. This is 2g / 2.5g. Not designed for data. If you have 5 bars on this, 56kb/s is the max you can receive

3g/hsdpa is around broadband speeds. This is what you need to transfer data.

 

If the mast is oversubscribed, your handset should still show 3g/hsdpa as it is not limited to the number of connections, but will slow down if there is not enough data capacity. 3g is up to 500kb/s and hsdpa is up to 7.2mb/s.

 

What I think is happening is the mast close to you has 2g and 3g. As 2g signal has more range than the 3g, you are out of range of the 3g.

[awsx123]

I think you're a little mixed up on your connections.

gprs/edge is around dial up speed. This is 2g / 2.5g. Not designed for data. If you have 5 bars on this, 56kb/s is the max you can receive

3g/hsdpa is around broadband speeds. This is what you need to transfer data.

 

If the mast is oversubscribed, your handset should still show 3g/hsdpa as it is not limited to the number of connections, but will slow down if there is not enough data capacity. 3g is up to 500kb/s and hsdpa is up to 7.2mb/s.

 

What I think is happening is the mast close to you has 2g and 3g. As 2g signal has more range than the 3g, you are out of range of the 3g.

 

 

 

well i don't think i am mixed up! perhaps i should mention at this point that this subject matter is within my area of professional competence, i am an electronic design engineer and have experience designing both antenna and radio transmit/receive circuitry for digital communications networks. i also have design experience of the digital hardware side of things, and experience writing the software to run on these systems (i used to work for securicor datatrak and designed chunks of their system). so i do feel i have quite a deep understanding of the general topic.

 

however, that's an aside. the issue for me here is less about the technical specifics of what may or may not be happening, and more about the clear and simple disparity between the service Vodafone advertise on their coverage map (both in central london and here in Brixham) and what they actually provide.

 

just to clarify your position, do you find it acceptable that Vodafone advertise "high speed" data connectivity over 50% of Brixham, and "variable speed" over the rest of Brixham, when in fact the vast majority of the town only has access to gprs/edge? which by your own claim "is not designed for data". i can get a decent 3G signal in the gym right at the top of the town, it's the only place in Brixham i have actually managed to get 3G.

 

btw, you are more or less correct on the issue of gprs transfer rates, but you are not quite correct on the issue of edge data transfer rates, the technology itself (when the network is not completely overloaded) supports quite reasonable data transfer rates of 384kb/sec.

 

of course, wherever you encounter gprs/edge it always is completely overloaded because these days in 2013 the cell will be full of smartphones trying to access high bandwidth internet services and this arcane technology which still seems to constitute the majority of Vodafone's network is no longer fit for purpose.

[awsx123]

just run another speed test of Vodafone's network in Brixham, to see if this morning's appalling results were an anomaly.

 

now, a bit later in the day, i'm getting 15Kb/sec (so the already unusable speed has almost halved).

 

this, bear in mind is in a part of town marked clearly on the Vodafone map as having "high speed" data access.

[locutus]

what I'm saying is it's rubbish, but they covered it in the T&C.

 

IF they had said "you definitely have 100% super fast HSDPA at the place you listed" then they'd be in the wrong.

 

They've said "we predict, we think..." not "we guarantee or you definitely will get..."

[awsx123]

so it's completely legal and above board for Vodafone to publish coverage maps that totally mis-represent the service they offer, provided they put in the small print that this dishonest mis-representation is only a "prediction"?

 

i am not sure i believe that's true, but if it is true it is extraordinary. i thought there was trading standards legislation which prohibited outright lying of this sort.

[locutus]

Well complain, see how far you get. The prediction is always going to be "best case scenario" and is probably as simple as checking the distance from a transmitter and cannot take into account building materials / structures / trees blocking the signal as they're not on a map.

[awsx123]

Well complain, see how far you get. The prediction is always going to be "best case scenario" and is probably as simple as checking the distance from a transmitter and cannot take into account building materials / structures / trees blocking the signal as they're not on a map.

 

OK then I don't think you understand the situation. As i have already explained, the evidence points to a problem with network capacity, this is a separate issue to radio coverage.

 

It's perfectly true that radio coverage may not be guaranteed due to the vagaries of radio propagation around objects and undulating landscapes, but this problem has got nothing to do with radio propagation. The quality of the R.F. link is fine, I have 5 bars of signal on my phone. It could not be any better - it is perfect.

 

Because the signal is perfect, lack of signal is not the problem. The problem is having more people trying to access data in a cell than the cell can adequately provide for.

 

This problem could exist on any network, it could exist on a CAT5 ethernet network, it could exist on an ADSL broadband connection - it's got nothing to do with the use of radio technology to create the network physical layer.

 

Rather, it is solely due to the network operator choosing to overload the network. I think much of the problem could be alleviated by upgrading all gprs base stations with HSDPA, but again the network operator has chosen not to do that.

 

I am starting to understand how Vodafone get away with this. When people complain, Vodafone blame the problem on the inherent vagaries of radio communications - even though in fact the problem is their overselling of their data network and their failure to upgrade all gprs base stations to HSDPA. And unfortunately since there aren't many electronic engineers out there who know any better, they get away with it, don't they?

[awsx123]

Just running another speed test on the Vodafone network this morning here in Brixham, to see if yesterday's appalling results were an anomaly.

 

I emphasise here that this is with 5 bars of radio signal - the quality of the radio link is excellent, there is absolutely no problem with building materials, structures or trees attenuating the signal.

 

1st attempt: network so slow that the speed test app timed out

2nd attempt: 38Kb/sec

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi awsx123,

 

I can see that quite a debate has been going on here.

 

In regard to your own experience I'd recommend providing feedback of this via the coverage checker here as the information provided is taken into consideration when enhancements are being planned.

 

If you'd like to discuss things further could you email me with your details via Contact us form here and quote the code WRT135 - CAG Forum in the subject line?

 

Once sent you'll receive an automated reply with a reference number. To make sure it reaches me could you update the thread with this and I'll get back to you as soon as I can?

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations

 

Vodafone UK

[dreadpiratesteve]

I would point out that the bars that represent "Mobile Signal strength" means nothing. There isn't an industry standard in that regard.

 

I think the problem you're experiencing is that of over-subscription to a particular cell mast. Similar to that when an entire family have connected their Wi-Fi devices to their internet router.

 

Yes, Vodafone could upgrade those cells that suffer from over-subscription to handle the numbers. But then Vodafone and other mobile phone companies are stuck between a rock and hard place - pleasing their customers and pleasing their shareholders!

[locutus]

You said you are connected to gprs/edge. You will not get much speed from that connection.

 

If the same base station has HSDPA on the exact same mast the range is a lot lower, so you still may not get covered.

 

You are saying that other people are using all the bandwidth leaving none for you, I think its more likely that your 2g connection cannot handle the speed, even with full bars.

[awsx123]

Thanks for the input Lee - I submitted feedback on the coverage checker. I don't think I need to speak to you directly about this though, I think I'd rather just moan about it in public until you either update your coverage checker to reflect the dismal reality of your data network or (preferably) fix the service so that it actually matches what you claim to provide.

 

Just doing another quick speed test of your network from Brixham, in a spot on the map marked as having "high speed" data connectivity available.

 

Attempt 1: network so slow that speed test app timed out

Attempt 2: 84Kb/sec. amazing! the best result all week! slightly faster than 1990's dial-up.

Attempt 3: network so slow that speed test app timed out

Attempt 4: network so slow that speed test app timed out

Attempt 5: 54Kb/sec

 

Can you perhaps explain to me here how this is reasonably described (and ethically marketed) as a "high speed" data connection?