Help with a Parking ticket.

[snowy101]

Got a ticket today in Hoxton street N1.

 

I originally parked & payed on the Pay & display side,

found the building i had to unload too on the other side [ which i subsequently have found out is " permit holders " ]

 

moved the van to a space right next to the business i had to go to & unloaded .

 

When i came back the warden had put a ticket on the van & was taking the pictures.

 

I asked if i was allowed to unload & she said " yes" but it was the permit only side,

so i`m not allowed to unload if its a permit side?.

 

She claimed she did`t know i was unloading , i said its a works van & has a valid P&D ticket in the window,

you have just taken a photo of it.

She would`t answer any questions & kept walking away.

 

My question is, i`m i going to have to pay or can you pay / display & unload to a business in the

" permit holders " side.

 

Hope this all makes sense.

 

Snowy

[green_and_mean]

If the sign said 'permit holders only' then its fairly obvious that you cannot use a pay and display but you can load so that is your best line of defence.

[snowy101]

Well they rejected my appeal, i don't know on what grounds as yet, because they sent the rejection via email. I will have to wait until i get the letter.

 

Can anyone tell me what the "F " means in the box . [ATTACH=CONFIG]45452[/ATTACH]

[green_and_mean]

F is the zone only permits with F on can park there

[Jamberson]

I don't think loading is universally allowed in permit spaces. Why don't you phone them - don't mention your PCN, just ask if loading is permitted in permit bays. If it is, you should continue the appeals process.

[snowy101]

I don't think loading is universally allowed in permit spaces. Why don't you phone them - don't mention your PCN, just ask if loading is permitted in permit bays. If it is, you should continue the appeals process.

 

I tried your suggestion, seems you can unload but the vehicle must be open, you cant lock the vechicle & the unloading must be continuous. This is a catch 22, no one is going to be constantly unloading & certainly you can`t leave a vehicle open & unlocked.

 

I think i will take this to PATAS , a lone delivery driver can`t be expected to be "continuously unloading & leave a vehicle open & unlocked" .

[Jamberson]

So the issue is that you were deemed to be parked, and not actively loading. This is a pretty standard situation. If you are going to pursue the appeals route, can you back up your appeal with something tangible? EG, is there a work sheet or delivery note or something, to prove what you were doing at the time?

[snowy101]

Hi Jamberson. Yes, i can back it up with a delivery sheet.

[Jamberson]

Great. If you mention it and include a copy with your application, that will strengthen your case.

[Jamberson]

I just realised - you haven't had a Notice to Owner yet, have you?

 

If not, you'll need to wait for that then appeal again in writing, with a copy of your delivery note. PATAS is a later part of the process - not yet.

[snowy101]

I have already appealed once, they have sent out a rejection letter. Picking it up tomorrow from work. can i now proceed to PATAS ?.

 

Just to add, i could`t include the proof for my first appeal , i explained why i was there, gave them the address of the business i was attending but it was rejected.

[crem]

I tried your suggestion, seems you can unload but the vehicle must be open, you cant lock the vechicle & the unloading must be continuous. This is a catch 22, no one is going to be constantly unloading & certainly you can`t leave a vehicle open & unlocked.

 

I think i will take this to PATAS , a lone delivery driver can`t be expected to be "continuously unloading & leave a vehicle open & unlocked" .

 

I believe this attitude has been challenged successfully before on the basis that it is unrealistic to leave a vehicle open and unsecure whilst the actual delivery may be taking place inside a building. Likewise, it is unrealistic to require at least 2 people to be carrying out the delivery, ome to take the goods inside to the customer and a second to "stand guard" at the vehicle.

 

In simple terms, either unloading is allowed or it is not. If you were unloading, then the council cannot stipulate specifically how they will deem that unloading to be physically carried out.

[Jamberson]

I have already appealed once, they have sent out a rejection letter. Picking it up tomorrow from work. can i now proceed to PATAS ?.

 

No. If you don't pay it now, then you will be issued a Notice to Owner, at which point you can make another written appeal to the council (with your evidence).

 

Can I ask why you are picking the letter up from work? Who is the registered keeper of the vehicle?

[snowy101]

No. If you don't pay it now, then you will be issued a Notice to Owner, at which point you can make another written appeal to the council (with your evidence).

 

Can I ask why you are picking the letter up from work? Who is the registered keeper of the vehicle?

 

Hi,

 

When i filled out the details i gave my name but put my work address/ telephone number down as the contact details, they are the registered keeper of the vehicle. Our head office is in the north west but we have a London office / depot, i don`t attend the London office[ my local one] every day as i install & assess clients all over the south of England. Our normal delivery guy was away so i did him a favour.

[snowy101]

Hi

 

Thanks for all the advice & help .

 

Can someone tell me what happens next?. I plan to appeal further, first appeal declined. How do i proceed?.

 

Many thanks

Snowy.

[Kiki1]

Hi

 

Thanks for all the advice & help .

 

Can someone tell me what happens next?. I plan to appeal further, first appeal declined. How do i proceed?.

 

Many thanks

Snowy.

 

Since Hackney is not one of the councils recorded as leeching from the motorist to cover shortfalls in their budget (they might be of course, but choose not to disclose the data)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23534998

 

wait until the NTO arrives and formally respond with the worksheet included

[Jamberson]

Hi,

 

When i filled out the details i gave my name but put my work address/ telephone number down as the contact details, they are the registered keeper of the vehicle.

 

This complicates the situation. Now your informal appeal has failed, the next step is that a Notice to Owner will be issued to the registered keeper. Only that person/party can respond to it - so from here, you are dependent on your employer helping you out.

 

If you have a contract showing you personally as the user of that specific vehicle, they can respond by transferring liability to you, with a copy of the contract, which resolves the problem.

 

If not, or if they are not willing to do it, they are going to be liable for the debt and only they can appeal it. Puts you in a tricky situation.

[snowy101]

This complicates the situation. Now your informal appeal has failed, the next step is that a Notice to Owner will be issued to the registered keeper. Only that person/party can respond to it - so from here, you are dependent on your employer helping you out.

 

If you have a contract showing you personally as the user of that specific vehicle, they can respond by transferring liability to you, with a copy of the contract, which resolves the problem.

 

If not, or if they are not willing to do it, they are going to be liable for the debt and only they can appeal it. Puts you in a tricky situation.

 

Thanks for the information.

 

I am not the registered keeper of the van, i work for the company, the van could be used by anyone who works for the company. I have given my name as the person who was driving when the ticket was issued . I have admitted i was driving & given the name of the registered keeper [ the company] . I have no contract for any particular vehicle, no one at my company does. The company own [ not lease] the vehicles & we drive them. The company will be happy to supply me with copies of delivery notes , i genuinely don`t understand how this is going to be a problem & would be happy for you to explain if it seems i am being , Mr thicky. I have never had a parking ticket before , so this is all new to me.

[Jamberson]

The reason it could be tricky is that the driver is not going to be liable for the debt, the vehicle owner is. The NTO will be issued to the company and sent to their address, and only they can appeal it then.

 

In the absence of a contract as I described, the company is going to remain liable, and so the company has to take up the appeal. If the company is willing to co-operate, then they may let you appeal by using their headed paper or something, so that you are in effect representing them, but it gets complicated, and they will be in debt if the appeal should fail. It depends how they feel about the situation, but you personally won't be able to appeal direct to the council, just as driver on the day.

 

By the way, it's not being Mr Thicky to not understand this! It's a strange area of law that someone (the company) who had nothing to do with it is automatically deemed to be guilty and in debt! No-one would understand that without places like this forum. That's what it's here for.

[snowy101]

Would they [ the company] still be liable if i had given my home address instead of the company's address , even though the vehicle legally belongs to them?. When they send the NTO , do they just take the details given or do they not check who the legal owner is.

[Jamberson]

The person liable is the person the local authority believes to be the owner. As a matter of course, they hold the registered keeper liable on the assumption that they own the vehicle.

 

So it doesn't matter what address you use on your appeal. The Notice to Owner will go to the keeper, and if they are indeed the owner, which is the case here, then they have the debt.

[snowy101]

Still not received a NTO, emailed the council concerned & they have confirmed it has not been sent out yet. I notice the "fine" has been upped to £130.00. We [ the company & i] are intent on appealing right through to the PATAS stage. Should i just wait until the NTO arrives & then launch the second appeal.

[green_and_mean]

Would they [ the company] still be liable if i had given my home address instead of the company's address , even though the vehicle legally belongs to them?. When they send the NTO , do they just take the details given or do they not check who the legal owner is.

 

It will be sent to the address on the log book v5

[snowy101]

Hi all, OK, finally got the NTO. Any advice on how proceed?. Is there any examples of people with my kind of ticket fine that have successfully appealed .

 

Thanks in advance.

[Jamberson]

Who got the NTO? Whose name is on it?