Landlord not returning deposit

[Armit]

Carpet Cleaner - Many Thanks for replying to me post.

 

Is he not supposed to make the claim when the old contract expires and before the new one is made? How can he have the liberty to make claim anytime he wants?

 

I will wait for opinion of senior members or from someone who has experienced the situation.

[The Carpet Cleaners]

tell you what.....

 

you asked the question .. I have answered it, I guess that I don't count as a senior member on here, despite the fact that I only answer on my own experience...

 

I shall now not be answering any more questions that you may have.

[mariner51]

If Ts have not changed between each AST I agree with carpet cleaners. If you were the sole continuing T, would you be happy to pay £100 for inventory checks every time an AST was renewed? Thought not.

 

Your initial query was about LL not having move inventory at start of AST. I now wonder whether you were the T on previous ASTs, starting with the one which did have a move in inventory?

 

Is 1500 posts sufficient experience for you?

[citizenB]

Carpet Cleaner - Many Thanks for replying to me post.

 

Is he not supposed to make the claim when the old contract expires and before the new one is made? How can he have the liberty to make claim anytime he wants?

 

I will wait for opinion of senior members or from someone who has experienced the situation.

 

Hmmm, well I have to admit, I find this rather a disingenuous response!

 

It is irrelevant whether Carpet cleaner has a few or a thousand posts, we have every confidence in the accuracy !

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Emm, do you have an inventory from the start of the tenancy which should show the conditions of all fixtures and fittings including carpets/curtains, the decorative condition of the property and also includes any other furnishings and any 'white goods' included in the agreement.

 

If such an inventory was not carried out both tenant & landlord leave themselves open to claims, and most situations in my experience need a judge to sort them out.

 

A landlord has the right to inspect the property on a regular basis by making an appointment to do so, if any damage to fabric of the property is apparent or any of the contents are damaged/not functional then the LL can require the damage to be remedied at that point.

[Armit]

Carpet Cleaner, I can only say that you got me wrong. It was not my intent to disregard your answer but since it is a complex matter I thought you are probably just like myself, a tenant looking for answers to your issues.

 

Just so that you do not get it otherwise, I made sure that I first said Thanks for your reply.

 

Do you still see anything wrong? Hope not.

 

Coming to other questions, The first Tenancy was a joint one with three people, me being one. Then next contract on my name and then the current on a joint one on three new people. If the LL does not perform a check-out at the end of contract and continues on with existing deposit as the deposit for next contract, then he effectively is not making any claim for damage in the old contract. What then is the point of getting a new contract? He gets the benefit of six months non-break guarantee. Isn't it? So it cant be that he gets the advantages of new contract as well as get cost of all the repairs. And may be if he had got the check-out done each year, I may have moved from that house if the breakage cost of one year was not affordable.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Armit

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

It is simple if the LL has not made proper checks on the property/contents at the closure of one tenancy agreement and the inception of a new agreement AND the tenant (s)

have not insisted on their right to have such an inventory made, (due diligence) then any dispute in one mans word against another' s and litigation or mediation will be necessary.

 

Even more simply if the property/contents have been damaged then the tenants have in their common duty of care in relation to the landlords property imo the LL would be able to make a successful county court claim.

[raydetinu]

How was the deposit dealt with at the change of tenancies and the new tenancy agreement with the new tenants? did you pay all the deposit for the first one? then they paid you their split.

Was the deposit scheme informed of the new tenants and their contribution? or were you acting as lead tenant only with the scheme?

With regard to any damages, I would think that you are joint and severally liable and the LL can hold you responsible; and if you believe others were, then you would have to sue them IMHO.

[Armit]

Hey Raydetinu , Thanks for the reply.

 

How is a Lead Tenant defined? Is it a legal term and if so, does it need to be specifically mentioned on the contract.

 

The deposits never physically changed hands and original deposit continued on. The original deposit was pooled-up in my bank-account and passed on to Landlord. Same was done for monthly rent. This is how Landlord wanted as he did not want to deal with three different people separately. There was no such thing as Lead tenant mentioned anywhere in the joint contract. All three were on Council Tax bill, water bill was on another person's name. When the second contract was made, it was just me on the contract as other two were about to leave within a few months. Thus the original contract came to an end.

 

The Deposit was never protected with DPS, let alone they being informed about the change of tenants for any of the previous contracts. Even for the current contract I had to chase LL to deposit the money, which he did finally but almost 12 months late.

[mariner51]

Which of orig AST tenants moved out between subs ASTs?

Lead Tenant has no legal meaning AFAIK, it is sometimes used to refer to the first T listed in a joint T, but with where all t's are joint & severally liable, the AST definition of The Tenant is all of the t's.

[Armit]

Thanks Mariner for replying. One of two joint tenants moved out two months before and the other stayed till end of first tenancy. Also the three tenants in the current contract are not the same as those in the first contract.

 

How does this matter? Please explain.

 

Also just wanted to bring this one more point here. The copy of first contract which the landlord shows has a HANDWRITTEN sentence on it "As per inventory report prepared on xxxx date by LetEasy, having reference number xxxx".

 

Now the question is that I am not sure weather this handwritten note was there when we had signed the contract. Such a handwritten note can always be added after the signature has been done. Will such a handwritten note considered valid at all? I do not have the original contract with me any more.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Armit

[mariner51]

You imply that you are the sole surviving T of the first AST and remained as named T occupation for subs 2 ASTs. You were the one resp for colldecting rent and paying due amount to LL

(The departing 2 Ts did not ask for their deposit back or were repaid from incoming Ts deposits?)

Who collectected and disbursed any news deposits?

 

You are drip feeding info with subs posts. The basis of providing good advice is to understand the full picture from outset, with Qs for clarification as reqd, eg handwritten entry about move in inventory, which LL my have to provide to Adj.

 

So please provide for this bear of little brain

AST 1 details

Names of joint Ts eg T1, T2, T3

Length of Fixed Term

Date T commenced

Method of termination

 

Similarly for ASTs 2 & 3 Incoming tenants referred to as T4 etc

 

How was each AST terminated? LL Notice, T NTQ or T vacancy 're-assigned' to replacement T ?

Edited July 9, 2013 by mariner51

[Armit]

Mariner, Thanks for your reply. Here are the details.

 

AST1:

Tenants: - Peter, Sam, Armit,

Fixed Term, one year,six month break clause. beginning from 01-Dec-2009.

Termination. AS per Landlord's wish, a new contract ( and no SPT ) was signed at the end of current contract.

 

AST2:

Tenant: Armit,

Fixed Term, one year,six month break clause. beginning from 01-Dec-2010.

Termination. AS per Landlord's wish, a new contract ( and no SPT ) was signed at the end of current contract.

 

AST3:

Tenants: Armit, Jack, Gary

Fixed Term, one year,six month break clause. beginning from 01-Dec-2011.

Termination on 31-May-2013. By giving two month notice.

 

The deposit remained with LL since AST1 and only deposited in DPS in Nov-2012.

[Armit]

Hey Mariner, Waiting for your reply. Is there anything you had asked for that I missed.

 

Also please tell me what is the process of check-in inventory? Isn't the inventory report (Handwritten or Professionally prepared) supposed to have signature of the tenant?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Armit

[raydetinu]

Normally anything added after the signature, unless acknowledged or initialled/dated by tenant is not a valid part of the contract.

[Armit]

Hey Raydetinu, Thanks for the reply.

 

The question actually is weather a "HandWritten" note on a "Printed" contract is valid, particularly when I am not ready to accept that Handwritten note existed when the contract was being signed?

 

Also the second bigger question is "Isn't the inventory report (Handwritten or Professionally prepared) supposed to have signature of the tenant?".

 

Regards.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Armit

[mariner51]

A written contract and copy can be amended, up to time of signing, by a handwritten amendment, pref initialled by both Parties.

The 'validity' question is then covered by duplicate counterpart Contracts ie each Party signs both copies and retains one copy each.

If there is no copy for signing, refuse to sign original until copy is presented.

The Inventory report (move in or out) does not need to be signed by T, though preferable for both sides, only that a move in inventory should be provided to T for checking within a few days, if not present at actual inspection. Again there should be counterpart copies, 1 for LL, 1 for T.

Indeed many Ts fail to sign move in inventory in the mistaken belief it cannot be valid, if not signed by them. Often they are not present for formal move out check, esp if conducted after T terminated

[Armit]

Thanks Mariner for the reply.

 

Given that the inventory report does not have my signature and there is only a "Handwritten" note on the contract about inventory, can the LL still hold me accountable to that inventory? He never gave me the inventory list. He only handed me in the last month of leaving.

 

Also there is absolutely no signature of even any previous tenant on the inventory report.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

How detailed is this inventory 'report'?

[raydetinu]

If the handwritten note is after the signature, in a contract document it is not valid. ( the note that is )

[Armit]

Hello Brigadier, The inventory report was prepared by an Agency.

 

Hey Reydetinu, There is no way to ascertain weather or not the handwritten note existed at time of signing the contract. I do not remember the LL calling us after the signature and putting that note with taking our consent.

 

I believe he could always have it printed the full contract with all the texts (Given that he has a printer at his shop where the contract was signed). There was nothing to stop him from preparing a complete document from scratch.

 

He has clearly put that note after we signed it? He is trying to frame me. In such circumstances, How can I prove that his handwritten note is false. Can I not say that if only that note existed at the time of signature, why then did he not get our signature on the inventory report as well?

[raydetinu]

You do not have to worry, Anything after a signature in a contract is not valid, unless dated and at least have your initials by it. ( contract law ).

A signature is the end of the document!

[Armit]

Hey Raydetinu, Many Thanks for the reply. Does the contract law also include that a handwritten note should have additional signature to make it valid?

 

You do not have to worry, Anything after a signature in a contract is not valid, unless dated and at least have your initials by it. ( contract law ).

A signature is the end of the document!

 

What will happen if there is no way to establish weather the handwritten note was made BEFORE or AFTER the signature?

[raydetinu]

At the risk of repeating myself! the signature is the end of the contract document!!! unless acknowledged otherwise by the parties!

[Armit]

Hello Raydetinu,

 

As I had said, the other two joint tenants have left UK and gone back to their country. For the purpose of claiming 1-3x deposit, Do all the parties in joint tenancy need to be in UK.

 

And if so, Can the other two tenants legally authenticate me for following up the claim on their behalf. Is there some kind of legal form for this?

 

Regards