Newlyns and OH's PCN

[caledfwlch]

To get a successful prosecution for clamp damage the Bailiff's would basically have to have neighbours who saw it happen prepared to go to court on their behalf, or video footage of it being damaged.

 

A debtor does not have any duty of care, or responsibility towards a clamp, if it vanishes, its not the debtors problem.

 

I should think that proving a debtor is hiding a levied car is quite difficult too. It's entirely possible that a friend or family member with their own key believes it was being lent to them for a few weeks and did not realise.

[tomtubby]

Just a small correction.....a bailiff may indeed "seize" a vehicle by applying a clamping device.

[HCEOs]

The car is not stolen , we don't have it at the moment just in case of the bailiffs. I'm sure that they will be wanting the car even more so if they could get their grubby hands on it. LoL

 

You've committed a criminal offence removing the seized car.

[me_n_ze]

You've committed a criminal offence removing the seized car.

Its only a criminal offence if the bailiff has left a seizure notice.... and he left no seizure notice. Its also NOT a criminal offence to remove the clamp and car if the bailiff register or fees are incorrect. Which both fees and register are incorrect.

[lamma]

You've committed a criminal offence removing the seized car.

Not when its an illegal distress.

[seanamarts]

You've committed a criminal offence removing the seized car.

 

It may help if you could point us to the correct legislation that states this fact. Im not stating it dosnt exists, It would just back up what you have said.

[brassnecked]

You've committed a criminal offence removing the seized car.

 

For clarification, If I am a third party and the LAWFUL owner, am I also committing an offence cutting off the clamp, when the bailiff gets stroppy, and moving my wrongly levied car, in other words does the mere fact the bailiff has seized and immobilised my car even though he has no right to the motor make my act criminal?

[HCEOs]

Let's be honest here. The OP has had the clamp cut off and hidden the car. That is an offence - s92 County Courts Act 1984.

 

Whether it should have been seized is a different matter and there are lawful procedures for a third party claim if the cat belongs to somebody else. That was never mentioned though so I doubt that is the case.

 

So, an offence has been committed by 'rescuing seized goods'. Unfortunately the likelihood of prosecution is slim these days and this very fact undermines the whole enforcement industry. If there were real consequences to rescuing seized goods then bailiffs would be far happier leaving vehicles with the debtors rather than clamping and removing them when they're found.

 

Not what people on here want to hear but it makes sense if you think about it.

[lamma]

Not when its an illegal distress.

[unclebulgaria67]

This become a chicken or egg first argument. It is a pretty silly system that appears to cause more problems. Rather than clamp cars, they should change the law, so Police can arrest people and take them down to the local magistrates. Information can then be given to Magistrates, who can then decide the best way forward. The current system just seems be abused by bailiffs to rack up fees and they don't listen to people, if there are any issues.

[lookinforinfo]

Let's be honest here. The OP has had the clamp cut off and hidden the car. That is an offence - s92 County Courts Act 1984.

 

Under The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993 s.10 then s.92 of the County Courts Act shall not apply.

[seanamarts]

Not when its an illegal distress.

 

I am a little confused with your link lamma, please can you explain.

[tomtubby]

HCEO

 

Article 3 of The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993 provides the requirements which must be satisfied before payment may be enforced etc but Article 4 modifys certain provisions of the County Court Act 1984.

 

Many parts of the County Courts Act 1984 do apply but parts 90, 91 and 92 ARE EXCLUDED from the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/2073/article/10/made

[lamma]

I am a little confused with your link lamma, please can you explain.

Link put in by forum software. I just cut and pasted the previous instance.

The link aside, the point stands.

[seanamarts]

Link put in by forum software. I just cut and pasted the previous instance.

The link aside, the point stands.

The link is to paypal, Im still not sure why you have made that link.

[HCEOs]

HCEO

 

Article 3 of The Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993 provides the requirements which must be satisfied before payment may be enforced etc but Article 4 modifys certain provisions of the County Court Act 1984.

 

Many parts of the County Courts Act 1984 do apply but parts 90, 91 and 92 ARE EXCLUDED from the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/2073/article/10/made

 

Many thanks for clarifying that Tomtubby, Parking is certainly not my area of expertise. However there must be law to state that the rescue of seized goods is illegal in this arena also....

[lookinforinfo]

Many thanks for clarifying that Tomtubby, Parking is certainly not my area of expertise. However there must be law to state that the rescue of seized goods is illegal in this arena also....

 

Could it possibly be that bailiffs are not permitted to clamp cars in these circumstances and therefore it is not a criminal offence for them to be removed without the approval of bailiffs?

[tomtubby]

HCEO I do agree that there appears to be some irregularity in the statutory regs but I would assume that this probably is because in 1993 when the regs were introduced we did not have the awful position of bailiffs using ANPR to identify vehicles with an unpaid PCN and “clamping” of a vehicle was unheard of.

 

Instead but most importantly, the 1993 regulations provide the a bailiff may“seize” goods ( including a vehicle) by completing a Notice of Seizure on a Statutory Form 7 and that the vehicle may then be used by the debtor by completing a Form 8 Walking Possession Agreement. In this way, a payment arrangement can be set up and everyone’s quite content.

 

the simple fact is that I have only ever come across TWO CASES where bailiffs allowed a debtor to retain the car and agree a Walking Possession.

 

It is a sad fact that “clamps” are removed from cars and whilst I do not recommend this happens, there is fault on both sides.

Bailiffs company are charging fees that are simply out of control and are failing to abide by the civil procedure rules regarding changes of address etc. Debtors on the other hand fail many times to address PCN’s and appeals at an earlier stage. Mind you...if they did there would be a lot less work for bailiffs !!!

Rant over.....

PS: I would assume that the bailiff company could take criminal action against a debtor for removing a clamp but it is my understanding that such action may only be for DAMAGE to the clamp and furthermore the bailiff company would need PROOF that the debtor had removed or damaged the clamp. Unless witnessed.....very difficult to prove.

[lamma]

I will repear. the link was put in by the software, I Just typed in the word d i s t r e s s

and will do so again now

distress

to see the result

 

edit 1

and the paypal link appears again.

not of my doing.

edit 2

and the link has now disappeared after the post edit !

So once more I type it in

distress

edit 3

and the no link at all in the entire post

Note: a traversal of the thread has brought them back

I will add a new post to the thread to see if it only initial posts that get this.

Edited March 14, 2013 by lamma

[lamma]

distress

[unclebulgaria67]

Think the CAG IT bods will need to fix. The link does not work anyway when it goes to a page trying to open paypal.

[seanamarts]

Think the CAG IT bods will need to fix. The link does not work anyway when it goes to a page trying to open paypal.

 

Its sorted now thanks Uncle B

[me_n_ze]

can some one tell me if a bailiff can work for more than one company at the same time?

[me_n_ze]

will try and upload the letter from newlyn

 

can anyone tell me how to upload a scanned letter so it is big enough to read!

Edited April 5, 2013 by me_n_ze

[ploddertom]

Can you convert it to a PDF file?