Bill of sale (help please)

[ivanjunko]

Hi

 

I have a car on finance and it is secured using a bill of sale. Could anyone tell me if this bill of sale is enforceable or not. It was signed by the salesman and no solicitor was present. I have put a link below of it with personal details missing. Any help is appreciated.

 

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q786/ivanjunko/scan0001_zpsc9122ca5.jpg

 

Ivan

[ivanjunko]

For the link to work change the 2 x's to 2 t's as I am unable to post links

 

Ivan

[ivanjunko]

Any ideas anyone?

[raydetinu]

plenty of advice on here do a search under bill of sale.

for it to be leagal it must have to be registered at the high court.

Also cca rules apply, so cant repossess unless within the rules.

beware if they do repossess illegally, as minefield of legal wrangles to get compensation!

[ivanjunko]

Hi again

 

I the finance company come to repossess can they go on to private land ie a drive at my mothers house and then repossess or do they need a court order?

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Regards

 

Ivan

[raydetinu]

Depends if it is linked to a CCA agreement then NO without a court order

( would have to produce registered BOS in court to get that ).

 

however if the BOS has been registered at the high court

and you are in default

and they produce the registrered document,

then I think they can and does not have to be baliffs either.

 

If not regeistered the BOS is not valid, nor possibly the CCA.

 

If in doubt call the Police, however they are not always up on the law.

 

Best to keep the vehicle out of sight,as they often pinch it then you have chase to get it back.

[Sofka]

Assuming that the bill of sale is valid and secures a CCA regulated agreement that is properly executed,

all the creditor has to do before repossessing the vehicle is to serve a default notice under s87 CCA and wait for it to expire (this cannot be sooner than 14 days).

 

None of the protections afforded to borrowers under HP or conditional sale agreements,

e.g. no repossession where one-third of HP price has been paid without a court order (s90 CCA)

or consent (s185), apply to the repossession of vehicles subject to bills of sale.

 

Also. s92 CCA, that prevents a creditor entering 'any premises' to repossess a vehicle subject to an HP

or conditional sale agreement without a court order or consent, does not apply to vehicles subject to a bill of sale.

 

The important thing to do is to check that the bill of sale was registered in the High Court within seven days of it being made

and to check that it complies with the Bills of Sale Acts 1878 and 1882.

You can find these Acts via Google - see in particular the Schedule to the 1882 Act.

[raydetinu]

Sofka, This is an oldish thread thread!

Also IMHO if the BOS is linked to a valid CCA then those rules apply! plenty of cases on here.

[Sofka]

I know that this is an oldish thread but I have been dealing with a few bills of sale recently

and decided to check out what the site said about them

(see my post about Automoney that, when challenged about a void bill of sale, would not admit that it was void but wrote off the debt).

 

I have studied the CCA 74 and the law relating to bills of sale in some depth for a number of years,

and am confident that providing the CCA agreement is properly executed and the bill of sale is valid,

there are no protections for the bill of sale borrowers against repossesssion other than the requirement to serve a default notice.

 

The protections provided by ss90 and 92 CCA 74 specifically apply to HP and conditional sale agreements only - check out the Act.

 

I am not aware of any cases that say otherwise - could you please provide details?

Edited October 8, 2013 by Sofka

[raydetinu]

Yep agree if all is correct then no protection for seizure of the security; i.e car

You are also correct in that not many BOS are registered or implemented correctly and therefore not valid.

There are cases, although cannot find them at the moment, where challenges have been made and upheld to get money back using CCA.

I will have a look through, quite old, a few years ago.

[Sofka]

If a CCA agreement is improperly executed, the borrower makes an application for a declaration of unenforceability under s142 CCA and the court makes the declartion, the agreement cannot be enforced, the security cannot be enforced (s113) and s106 is engaged. Section 106(d) states that 'any amount received by the creditor ... on the realisation of the security, shall, so far as it is referrable to the agreement, be repaid to the borower'.

 

In respect of the meaning of 'any amount received by the creditor ... on the realisation of the security, shall, so far as it is referrable to the agreement' the Court of Appeal case of Wilson v Howard Pawnbrokers [2005] EWCA Civ 147 held that this included payments made by the borrower (although this has been criticised by some leading commentators).

 

This is one route for borrowers to get their money back but I would have expected to have heard of any cases where this had been applied to a bill of sale agreement.

 

There is another issue that I have been considering and discussing with colleagues that relates to whether the late registration of bills of sale is permitted, and I wonder if you have any views on this.

 

Another thing that has come up recently is that if a borrower with a bill of sale agreement goes bankrupt, while the creditor cannot recover its debt directly, it retains the right to enforce its security by repossessing the car, selling it and keeping the proceeds of sale (Evans and Evans v Finance-U-Limited [2013] EWCA Civ 869)

[raydetinu]

It appears you have good knowledge in this area and will be able to help a lot and kept busy no doubt.

[Sofka]

I have been involved debt advice in the voluntary sector for nearly 30 years now and currently work as a debt consultant for a leading national charity.

 

Things are certainly very busy but that's how it's always been.

 

I have always been aggrieved by (allegedly) exploitative lenders such as those that offer pay loans and bill of sale agreements, and by 'rent to buy' businesses such as Brighthouse (see the article in last weekend's Guardian colour mag about this firm).

 

I am also very interrested in Mr Parkesh Gopee and his group of companies that provided sub-prime secured loans. These companies are: Reddy Corporation, Barons Finance Ltd (in liquidation); Ghana Bunks; and Barons Bridging Finance ltd. As previously reported on the site, the OFT refused to renew Reddy's CCA licence and Reddy appealed to the tribunal. Reddy's appeal was rejected and the tribunal that also found that the other companies had never had licences, meaning that there agreements are unenforceable. However this has not stopped Gopee continuing to enforce his agreement although this is not permitted.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Sofka
typo

[applecart]

If a CCA agreement is improperly executed, the borrower makes an application for a declaration of unenforceability under s142 CCA and the court makes the declartion, the agreement cannot be enforced, the security cannot be enforced (s113) and s106 is engaged. Section 106(d) states that 'any amount received by the creditor ... on the realisation of the security, shall, so far as it is referrable to the agreement, be repaid to the borower'.

 

In respect of the meaning of 'any amount received by the creditor ... on the realisation of the security, shall, so far as it is referrable to the agreement' the Court of Appeal case of Wilson v Howard Pawnbrokers [2005] EWCA Civ 147 held that this included payments made by the borrower (although this has been criticised by some leading commentators).

 

This is one route for borrowers to get their money back but I would have expected to have heard of any cases where this had been applied to a bill of sale agreement.

 

There is another issue that I have been considering and discussing with colleagues that relates to whether the late registration of bills of sale is permitted, and I wonder if you have any views on this.

 

Another thing that has come up recently is that if a borrower with a bill of sale agreement goes bankrupt, while the creditor cannot recover its debt directly, it retains the right to enforce its security by repossessing the car, selling it and keeping the proceeds of sale (Evans and Evans v Finance-U-Limited [2013] EWCA Civ 869)

 

Hi Sofka

 

It was a few years back now that a few of us Caggers were involved in a case to do with Nine Regions; who similar to those Companies you mention were heavily involved in taking consumers cars without any order from the court prior to doing so... We Won!

 

My files were collected by courier and transported to London for use at the trial. I attended the trial and gave evidence along with other Caggers.

 

Prior to the above.... I successfully took Nine Regions to court, and succeeded in getting all my money back - with the agreement, well, by the time they saw my defence to that...they withdrew their claim..... I then got them to remove the BoS from the record at the High Court of Justice...

 

Like I say, that was a long time ago......I do not have PM facility otherwise I would happily send you the 'Approved Judgment' for you to rely on in proceedings you take to assist other consumers.

 

I was not the only Cagger to have taken Log Book to Court and won.... there are others......getting in touch with them may not be too easy though......

 

If I can be of any assistance...please let me know : )

 

Apple

[Sofka]

Hi Apple

 

I would be very interested to see the 'Approved Judgment' but I not sure how to go about this (I am new to the site).

 

Also very interested in the basis upon which the court ordered the money to be repaid.

 

Sofka

[applecart]

Hi Apple

 

I would be very interested to see the 'Approved Judgment' but I not sure how to go about this (I am new to the site).

 

Regrettably, I do not have facility to either upload or PM documents.....

Also very interested in the basis upon which the court ordered the money to be repaid.

 

In brief......The BoS was declared void...

 

I accepted a part 36 offer.

 

They then sought to take me to court to recover money under the agreement.

 

I defended...on sight of the defence.... they withdrew their claim......and asked me to send them my bill..... I did...... they paid..... job done!

 

Sofka

 

If you are looking to assist Caggers or consumers at large, there is no issue.....Bills of Sale must be registered at the High Court of Justice within 7 days....there is the Bill of Sales Acts....don't overlook the 'amended' act...... I will have to re-visit my files in order to assist you further.....

 

I do know now why it is unlikely that any of the Bills of Sale will be registered with the HCJ....but that'a a whole different topic : )

 

Essentially, no vehicle can be re-possessed without an order from the Court and only after the lender has served a 'VALID' default notice.....

 

The Bill of Sale acts as security for the loan..... if the BoS is invalid.... they cannot take the car

 

There is a term in the BoS....that essentially says words to the effect that if they take the car...or exercise the right to do so (i.e from the borrowers point of view...attempts made to take the car......then the agreement is ended......so, hopefully this little titbit will assist you further.....

 

The terms of the agreement and the APR must also all stack up...... if it doesn't then the agreement is void......regardless as to whether it has been signed or not

 

Hope this helps?

 

Apple

[raydetinu]

There is now a code of practice announced in 2011/12 that lenders including those that rely on BOS must follow;

 

https://www.mobilemoney.co.uk/wp-content/themes/mobilemoney/downloads/CodeofPractice.pdf

[ims21]

applecart....your privileges for attaching docs should now be working.

[tonycard]

Please be careful when dealing with bills of sale,

 

the witness signature is covered in the amended act (1882)

 

They can repossess anytime without a court order after complying with cca (must show all relevant documents )

 

 

This is they must have sent yearly statements

 

A notice of default sums

 

A valid default notice set out according to the regs.

 

termination letter if default is not rectified

 

They can apply to the courts for late reg of bos (what excuse they use is beyond me if you have been paying for any length of time)