Southampton Row WC1 Bus Lane PCN

[Sio]

I was sitting in traffic on Southampton Row on 20/03/2012 at 17:48. As there was traffic ahead and to the side (and I was turning left further ahead) I decided it would be safer to turn earlier to avoid being stranded in the middle lane.

 

I did not think this would classify as "driving in the bus lane" as only two wheels crossed the solid bus lane before the broken line began.

 

I was very surprised to received PCN from Camden council with both photos and video of the event.

 

Having checked the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service (PATAS) database, I contested the PCN but this has been rejected and they are asking me to make "formal representation" not sure how to do this other than write a letter to them explaining what I have already explained over email (has anyone got any examples/ advice on this?).

 

There is precedent for an appeal against the exact same "contravention" see below link case ref 2120055756 being allowed.

 

patasregistersofappeals.org.uk/StatReg/case.aspx?caseref=2120055756

 

siolohrasb.zxq.net/page2.html

 

My car is marked by the blue arrow, the yellow box marks the end of the bus lane and the red arrow indicates the start of the broken lines.

 

So, my question is as Camden council are no doubt aware of the previous ruling (in November) against them for the exact same thing why would they put me through the same crap? (the answer can only be they are hoping that I would just pay up and forget about it)

 

I wonder how many others have fallen into this trap?

 

So I have posted this, hopefully with the right tags, to help other/ future victims.

 

Having said that I hope I win my "de minimis" appeal!

[notonthezigzag]

Hi there

 

I have just had exactly the same thing happen to me... being fined for 'entering the bus lane in advance of the crossing point' -by about one metre! I cannot believe how ridiculous this is, when I was clearly needing to turn left and was not deliberately driving along the bus lane.

 

It seems Camden Council are trying to net a lot of money at this intersection.

 

I notice that from the PATAS registers of appeal website that you won your case? Do you recommend I do the same?

 

Many thanks.

[Sio]

Yes it is ridiculous, yes Camden seem to be [causing problems] lots of people but...

 

Case 2120055756 was precedent for an upheld appeal on grounds of the contravention being minor (de minimis), the appeal was upheld because the driver just clipped the end of the solid white line, unfortunately the front of my car cut the white bus lane line a car's length before it ended.

 

Even though you have to do this in traffic otherwise you will cause more problems and you are not actually "driving" in a bus lane they deem this a contravention of the rules.

 

My case (2120389117) had not gone to PATAS at the time and as you will no doubt see it was refused.

 

Although grossly unfair, unless you have limitless resources, it is advisable to pay if the front of your car crossed the white line.

 

Kind regards,

 

Sio.

[notonthezigzag]

Sio -very surprised and shocked to hear that your appeal was refused. You would surely think common sense would prevail. This bus lane is certainly a cash cow for Camden as within a short time my research discovered many more with similar experiences. I am going to appeal based on the following:

 

1. It was a natural manoeuvre with no obstruction of buses so as to turn left. Hence the very short incursion into the bus lane was "de minimis" and so small as to be legally insignificant.

2. The Camden (Bus Lanes) (Consolidation) Traffic Order 2012 2012/62 (dated 28 January 2013) provides the following exemption: 5.1.1 the vehicle is in the bus lane only to such extent and for so long as is necessary to enter or exit a side road or for it to access or leave premises adjacent to the bus lane;

3. Nowhere in The Camden (Bus Lanes) (Consolidation) Traffic Order 2012 2012/62 (dated 28 January 2013) does it state that a vehicle may only cross into the bus lane where there is a break in the bus lane road markings or where there is a dotted white line.

4. The filter used ( broken lines) was shorter than recommended (19 instead of 30 meters) (upheld by the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service Case Reference:2110570472)

5. There are many legal precedents allowing for such an exemption, including many from exactly the same spot on Southampton Row, on Parking and Traffic Appeals Service. For example:

 

Case Reference: 2110125695 - Adjudicator Teresa Brennan: I find that the footage shows that Mr Thornton crosses into the bus lane and travels in what I find to be a diagonal line across the bus lane before stopping at the traffic lights. I am satisfied having seen the footage and heard Mr Thornton's evidence the exemption contained in the Traffic Management Order applies. I allow this appeal.

 

Case Reference:2120055756 - Adjudicator Michael Nathan: I have carefully viewed the CCTV footage and observed that the Appellant's vehicle was seen to clip the edge of the solid white line of the bus lane a few metres before its termination and to have driven for a very short distance with two wheels over the white line for possibly one second before turning left. I find the incursion into the bus lane to be de minimis and to be so small as to be legally insignificant. The appeal is allowed.

 

Case Reference: 2060149574 - Adjudicator (Mr Anthony Engel): "a vehicle is allowed to cross a bus lane in order to turn left and€“ which is what happened. Clearly one cannot safely turn left without moving to the nearside in advance and I have

concluded (after some hesitation) that, despite crossing the unbroken white line, this case comes within that exemption."

 

Case Reference: 2110570472 - Adjudicator Michael Lawrence: "The Appellant argues that the bus lane at this location should have been ended before the junction with a main road (the Enforcement Authority accept that it was not a side road, but a cross road) and in any event the filter used ( broken lines) was shorter than recommended (19 instead of 30 meters) ... If there had been compliance with para. 17.9, the contravention would not have occurred as there would have been no bus lane where the Appellant' s vehicle began to move to its left near the junction. In these circumstances, I must allow this appeal."

[Sio]

I hope your appeal is upheld.

 

I was confident my appeal would be and as shocked as you when it was not!

 

As you can see from my case my appeal was refused merely because the front of my car crossed the solid white line with no other consideration! (least of all common sense)

 

I, and no doubt others reading this thread, wish you the best of luck.

 

Please update us when you win!

 

Kind regards,

 

@SioLohrasb

[pcboffin]

I'm in exactly the same position - I pulled into the left hand lane to turn left. Because there was stationary traffic in the lane ahead, but moving traffic turning left, I pulled across to join the moving traffic.

 

The pictures do not clearly show at what point I crossed the white line, but it must certainly have been very close.

 

Is there a charge to access the video of the incident, as it is unclear from the pictures whether my front wheels crossed the solid line or not.

 

In any case, the cases notonthezigzag mentions all seem to cover the situation I found myself in.

 

Be great to hear an update on whether his appeal was allowed? I find it difficult to see how Sio could have lost the appeal given the other cases, but have little confidence in the 'system' being anything other than a cash generating machine to make up for loss of Government funding

 

Relevant pics - [ATTACH=CONFIG]46610[/ATTACH] & [ATTACH=CONFIG]46609[/ATTACH]

 

Any thoughts on whether it is worth the hassle of appealing this? I will certainly make an informal appeal, but not sure I have the time or motivation to go through the formal process (That of course is what they rely on).

 

For people who have gone through the appeal process, how stressful is it? Am I right in thinking that you lose the right to the discount if your appeal fails? Surely that is unfair when you consider you have a reasonable case and precedence suggests too.

 

Or are we all now supposed to just bend over and take whatever rogering those in 'authority' deem valid?

 

Gavin

[Sio]

To my recollection it did not cost me anything to view the video but it was not of the "offence" itself but a close-up of me & my number plate!

 

The system, in this case PATAS, are made up of individuals from my email communications with them I gather they have one decent bloke working there and nine tossers so you have a 1 in 10 chance of winning your appeal I think (I hope they are reading this)

 

And, Camden Council are cashing in on PATAS lack of nuts...

 

I for one feel truly rogered but there's bugger all you can do about it (seemingly)

 

I would love to say appeal against it but deep down fear it would end up costing you more.

 

I would like to know how "notonthezigzag" got on maybe that will give you more solid ground.

 

Sorry mate,

 

Sio.

[green_and_mean]

I'm in exactly the same position - I pulled into the left hand lane to turn left. Because there was stationary traffic in the lane ahead, but moving traffic turning left, I pulled across to join the moving traffic.

 

 

The bus lane is to allow buses and other permitted vehicles to avoid queuing traffic that is the whole point, if anyone could just go in to avoid waiting they would be pointless.

The photo shows you entering well before the end of the solid line so there was no reason to do so other than to queue jump.

[Sio]

The bus lane is to allow buses and other permitted vehicles to avoid queuing traffic that is the whole point, if anyone could just go in to avoid waiting they would be pointless.

The photo shows you entering well before the end of the solid line so there was no reason to do so other than to queue jump.

 

Hate to disagree with a "Platinum Account Holder" but you seem to have missed the point or be viewing it from another perspective...

 

You have viewed it as queue jumping...

 

Ok let's say Gavin had stayed in the middle lane while the bus lane filled up with traffic (meters away from where he wanted to turn left)

 

Now we are waiting in the middle lane with both lanes full of traffic waiting for the red lights to turn green, eventually, when they do turn green and traffic moves - you are going to be in the wrong lane holding up traffic indicating left waiting for a kind-hearted Londoner to give way (good luck with that one)

 

There is a (common sense) difference between "driving in the bus lane" and entering into the last section for reasons such as this (which I thought a "de minimis" appeal was appropriate) but sadly this as you have proved by your comments - is open to interpretation.

 

It seems to me Camden should either end the bus lane much sooner or turn the centre lane into straight ahead & left turn with clear signage but they will not do this as it has proven to be such a "cash cow"!

 

Kind regards,

 

Sio.

[green_and_mean]

Hate to disagree with a "Platinum Account Holder" but you seem to have missed the point or be viewing it from another perspective...

 

You have viewed it as queue jumping...

 

Ok let's say Gavin had stayed in the middle lane while the bus lane filled up with traffic (meters away from where he wanted to turn left)

 

Now we are waiting in the middle lane with both lanes full of traffic waiting for the red lights to turn green, eventually, when they do turn green and traffic moves - you are going to be in the wrong lane holding up traffic indicating left waiting for a kind-hearted Londoner to give way (good luck with that one)

 

There is a (common sense) difference between "driving in the bus lane" and entering into the last section for reasons such as this (which I thought a "de minimis" appeal was appropriate) but sadly this as you have proved by your comments - is open to interpretation.

 

It seems to me Camden should either end the bus lane much sooner or turn the centre lane into straight ahead & left turn with clear signage but they will not do this as it has proven to be such a "cash cow"!

 

Kind regards,

 

Sio.

 

The bus route is a priority route if you have to wait in the other lane for the buses before you can turn left that's why its called having a priority. There would be little point in having a bus lane that ends 100m before the lights as the buses would just get stuck behind the cars. Your entire argument is pointless anyway as the left hand turning also has three lanes so both the traffic in the bus lane and next lane could both turn left at the same time, the only reason to move into the bus lane would be to queue jump.

[Sio]

The bus route is a priority route if you have to wait in the other lane for the buses before you can turn left that's why its called having a priority. There would be little point in having a bus lane that ends 100m before the lights as the buses would just get stuck behind the cars. Your entire argument is pointless anyway as the left hand turning also has three lanes so both the traffic in the bus lane and next lane could both turn left at the same time, the only reason to move into the bus lane would be to queue jump.

 

You are mistaken, in your sweeping generalization you neglected to take the facts in to account!

 

Fact 1:

By law, you cannot turn left in a lane that is clearly marked straight ahead (as in this case).

 

Fact 2:

Buses would not necessarily "get stuck behind the cars" as the lane would continue from being dedicated for buses to being dedicated to vehicles turning left (hence my comment about "clear signage") drivers would see this lane is dedicated only to vehicles turning left hence traffic would be less in this lane.

 

Most damning of all is the Google Maps link below that captures (in one picture) the very short short distance in which motorists have to prepare for the left turn and the error in your generalization!

 

 

Hope this helps you understand mine and other's frustration with this **** off road.

 

Kind regards,

 

Sio.

[Kiki1]

It might be worth checking on the latest headliners over the Camden commission [problem]. A FOI request with regards to the simians that overlook lower primates, trained in brightly coloured buttons that release a reward when pressed in the correct sequence, delivering a PCN to your doorstep should give you fighting chance.

[Sio]

It might be worth checking on the latest headliners over the Camden commission [problem]. A FOI request with regards to the simians that overlook lower primates, trained in brightly coloured buttons that release a reward when pressed in the correct sequence, delivering a PCN to your doorstep should give you fighting chance.

 

I wish I knew what you were talking about...

 

I think you are calling the camera operators monkeys but I can't be sure as you are too cerebral for me!

 

Here's that picture I promised.