DHL wont deliver parcel unless I pay first.

[ItsWar]

I am a retail business and DHL are refusing to deliever my parcel, unless I pay the import duty and fees up front. In this case its only about £10. I asked them to hasten delivery and issue an invoice.

 

I would expect them to either deliver and either collect any payment upon delivery or to deliver and issue an invoice for the duty. But they are refusing to do anything unless I pay first.

 

Can they refuse to deliver?

 

I am fed up with the delays that DHL, Fedex, Parcel Force etc incurr whilst they action their systems to get duty paid prior to delivery.

 

This parcel should have beeen with me a week ago.

[gaff4972]

I am a retail business and DHL are refusing to deliever my parcel, unless I pay the import duty and fees up front. In this case its only about £10. I asked them to hasten delivery and issue an invoice.

 

I would expect them to either deliver and either collect any payment upon delivery or to deliver and issue an invoice for the duty. But they are refusing to do anything unless I pay first.

 

Can they refuse to deliver?

 

I am fed up with the delays that DHL, Fedex, Parcel Force etc incurr whilst they action their systems to get duty paid prior to delivery.

 

This parcel should have beeen with me a week ago.

 

Then pay the owed duty...simple. If not, dont get the item.

 

Of Course they can refuse to deliver.

[ItsWar]

You have missed the point completely. This is not a question of paying the vat, which is a legal responsibility for me to do (and as a vat registered biusiness, can claim back). It is a question that examines whether a carrier, who has been paid by the sender and has contracted with them to deliver my goods, can then choose not to deliver them.

 

It is the delays that bother me and the insistence by some carriers that we pay them first or we dont get the parcel.

[gaff4972]

You have missed the point completely. This is not a question of paying the vat, which is a legal responsibility for me to do (and as a vat registered biusiness, can claim back). It is a question that examines whether a carrier, who has been paid by the sender and has contracted with them to deliver my goods, can then choose not to deliver them.

 

It is the delays that bother me and the insistence by some carriers that we pay them first or we dont get the parcel.

 

Well, the top and the bottom of it is that they can. I know parcelforce allow you to set up an account to pay the charges without the delay you mention - but imagine the cost to the service overall when many people simply refuse to pay the charges after the item has been delivered. The retaining of the parcel guarentees that cant happen. There are always people looking for a quick [problem].

 

Take it up with the carrier perhaps and see what they say?

[ItsWar]

Yes, but what does the law say?

[edwincluck]

This is an area that warrants scrutiny. Late last year, we imported some equipment from mainland China.

 

There was HMRC import duty to pay of £4.21. Yet when the equipment was delivered, the courier, FedEx, added a Fee of £16.59 for the collection of this duty on behalf of HMRC. Such a high charge for collecting such a small amount of duty is surely iniquitous.

 

I recall reading that HMRC has been told by the European Commission that it should not collect a tax or duty where the cost of collecting that duty is greater than the duty itself.

 

The question here is whether that Import Duty Collection Fee imposed by FedEx (a private courier), is relevant to the EC ruling.

[sillygirl1]

Parcelfarce have a similar fee, AND they like to charge £ for $ exchange rate, thereby inflating their 'claim' on the parcel to a higher level. I had a parcel held to ransom which was a personal item, VAT free, trying to claim the fee back is a nightmare! I had the original documentation for the order which I provided as evidence - lost TWICE by Parcelfarce and once by HMRC, now been left due to Xmas and personal issues.

 

This holding parcels to ransom is profiting nobody other than the carriers, I have been unable to find out how Parcelfarce accounts to the HMRC for individual people purchasing low value items (original cost of item was $10!), because it originated outside the EU they were 'duty and legally obliged' to charge me for it.

[ItsWar]

Without further prompting by me, DHL arrived with the parcel and it was cash on delivery for the duty. About ten days later than iy should have been.

 

As a business, I have a vat account and am obliged to pay vat direct to them, this is why I am angry that DHL, Fed Ex, Parcel Force etc, do deal directly with the vat man. It is iniquitious that the carrier charges so much to handle the vat when I have my own legal duty to do the same, and can do so without incurring any extra costs.

 

Maybe its different for a member of the public, and so its probably easier for them to allow the carrier to do the paperwork.

 

But holding a parcel to ransom, or delaying the delivery (after they have contracted with the sender to deliver the parcel) is wrong.

 

I want to force the issue , but cant on this case now, as the parcel has been delivered.

 

But what should I do next time? Is there a letter that quotes the law, than insists they deliver ? Which I can send off immediatly they start the ransom process.

[gaff4972]

Parcelfarce have a similar fee, AND they like to charge £ for $ exchange rate, thereby inflating their 'claim' on the parcel to a higher level.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Isnt it a set fee? Besides - the UKBA will always assess your import in £'s - so of course the correct exchange rate at that time will be made

 

I had a parcel held to ransom which was a personal item, VAT free, trying to claim the fee back is a nightmare! I had the original documentation for the order which I provided as evidence - lost TWICE by Parcelfarce and once by HMRC, now been left due to Xmas and personal issues.

THE CARRIER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LEVYING OF VAT. This slapped on the item by the UKBA. The carrier has no jurisdiction to turn around and then tell the UKBA how to assess the item. The dispute on any import VAT must be made directly to the UKBA. If importing via a postal network (Royal Mail / Parcelforce ) google "UKBA BOR286" - this form should sort things for you.

 

If you dont like the way the UKBA are handling things then you need to complain to your MP, Tax Office , Santa Clause - because the carrier's are not responsible for this.

 

 

As a business, I have a vat account and am obliged to pay vat direct to them, this is why I am angry that DHL, Fed Ex, Parcel Force etc, do deal directly with the vat man. It is iniquitious that the carrier charges so much to handle the vat when I have my own legal duty to do the same, and can do so without incurring any extra costs.

Your confusing being VAT registered with a deferment account. Google it. It might save you this issue.

[sillygirl1]

I am an individual, not a company and have ordered from the USA many times, sometimes you get 'caught' by customs, sometimes not. I got 'caught' for a $10 item sent by my cousin, she used her own company to send the item and that is why I got stung, next time she is going to send it as herself.

 

I did complain and complain but did not get any joy. They 'deemed' the value of an old needlework kit to be 'above the price for an individual item' and that I should have made the other person put VAT Free on the parcel - so we know what to do for next time. They 'assumed' that because it came from a company and had no postal value (again make sure you don't get stuff sent from the USA with Zero postage) they had to do an 'assumed' postage rate based on the 'assumed value' of the parcel.

 

Somehow it always seems a small value parcel is the one which gets 'caught'. I had ordered £90 worth of stuff from another company and that came through unchecked the same week.

[sillygirl1]

Thanks for the link to the form, I will fill it in and try that one, I still have all the evidence.... but it doesn't get you the fee back, which was far more than the £9 customs charge!

 

It is the level of these fees which are questionable, it does not take an hour to examine a parcel and decide how much somebody can be stung for, they certainly don't pay their workers above basic rate pay.... I know because a friend who works in a parcel sorting office is now learning Polish and Ukranian (he already speaks Urdu, Hindi and Arabic and has a flair for picking up spoken languages).

[ItsWar]

I sold an item on ebay and sent it to America. The customer changed her mind and returned it for a refund. I got stung for £60 import duty, vat and fees before I got the item back. Then I gave the refund, less those fees. Buyer complained and I had to refund the whole amount in the end, so I got really stung, getting my own goods back.

 

The carrier said they would not refund the fees or vat, but as I was vat registered, I could just deduct the vat on my next return, which I did. Had I of been a member of the public, I would not have been able too.

 

Anyway, the system stinks. The carriers charge the sender to send the goods and then the recipient is charged extra fees to receive the goods. Then the vat charged is sometimes accurate, but the carrier values the items inside the parcel according to the declared value plus the cost of the postage. So a heavy item worth say $400 and costs $150 to send, attracts vat based on the value of $550. AND they still wont deliver the goods until they are paid this money plus their additional handling fees. They delay delivering and hold you to ransom.

 

It is this delay that I question is unlawful.

[gaff4972]

Thanks for the link to the form, I will fill it in and try that one, I still have all the evidence.... but it doesn't get you the fee back, which was far more than the £9 customs charge!

If refunded in full, sent PF the letter to the claims address, they refund you it.

 

It is the level of these fees which are questionable, it does not take an hour to examine a parcel and decide how much somebody can be stung for, they certainly don't pay their workers above basic rate pay.... I know because a friend who works in a parcel sorting office is now learning Polish and Ukranian (he already speaks Urdu, Hindi and Arabic and has a flair for picking up spoken languages).

UKBA just want the money for the VAT / Duty. They care not to deal with customers directly. The provision of facilities to store and house the UKBA have to be paid for. Also, payment facilities online/telephone again are costs met by the carrier. Blame not DHL/UPS/Parcelforce because the fee which you complain about is a result of the UKBA wanting as little to manage as possible.

 

I highly doubt the UKBA would do all this for free..

 

I sold an item on ebay and sent it to America. The customer changed her mind and returned it for a refund. I got stung for £60 import duty, vat and fees before I got the item back. Then I gave the refund, less those fees. Buyer complained and I had to refund the whole amount in the end, so I got really stung, getting my own goods back.

Its obvious why. The buyer returned the parcel on a new consignment. UKBA would have had zero idea this was your item and would have assumed it was an import. The buyer should write on the parcel that the item is a return, and was originally exported on consignment ref XXX.

 

Regardless, you may have some recourse with the UKBA if you can prove this - so you can get these costs back. (Edit - ah you already have - nice one)

 

Anyway, the system stinks. The carriers charge the sender to send the goods and then the recipient is charged extra fees to receive the goods.

Read above why..

 

Then the vat charged is sometimes accurate, but the carrier values the items inside the parcel according to the declared value plus the cost of the postage. So a heavy item worth say $400 and costs $150 to send, attracts vat based on the value of $550. AND they still wont deliver the goods until they are paid this money plus their additional handling fees. They delay delivering and hold you to ransom.

 

It is this delay that I question is unlawful.

The reason the postage costs are taken into account are because its VAT that would be paid if the item was sent in this country. If you dont like this, complain about the tax system...not the carriers.

 

And again, its not ransom...they are collecting the fees in the most cost effective method, which ultimately benefits you. There are ways to pay the charges "automatically" as i have advised to you. Its part and parcel of being an importer, you gotta learn to deal with it.

[ItsWar]

No No No. Postage in the UK is vat free. I agree though, the sender could have described things differently so customs would have been aware the item was already mine. But, (and this is the point), how on earth is anyone supposed to know. They have simply made a contract with DHL etc to deliver a parcel for a set fee.

 

eg "How much to send this to England"?.

"$80 madam"

"Thank you so much"

"Have a nice day"

 

NOT

 

"How much to send this to England"?.

"$80 madam, plus $40 for the recipient to pay us at the other end, plus import duty and UK taxes before we deliver it. It might take an extra week to arrange for them to pay and if they fail, we will return the parcel to you, but we will keep your $80)"

"You bunch of Crooks"

"Have a nice day"

[gaff4972]

Mail may be zero rated, but Parcels through DHL/UPS/Parcelforce are not.

 

When you book a holiday, do they tell you that your bag might be pulled for a random inspection by Customs on your return? No.. the same applies here.

 

DHL should advise customers there may be duties and taxes to pay on the other end though..

[ItsWar]

Holidays are not a good analogy because even if a bag is inspected, you dont get charged extra for it. With an overseas parcel, every parcel gets pulled and a charge is always made. The carrier gives a price to thye sender (this price includes their costs and profit margin) then loads on an additional fee for delivering to the recipient, under the banner of a handling fee to collect and pay over some VAT. This additional fee is huge and is almost total extra profit for collecting vat and paying it to the vat man.

 

Now, all UK vat registered business, tell their customers the price plus vat or a total vat inclusive price. In other words we allocate our cost price and profit margin to arrive at a retail price. This contracted price (The price you pay the retailer) includes our collecting vat from you and paying it over to the vat man each quarter. We do not say to our customers, "The price is £100, plus £20 vat plus £20 for us as an additional profit for collecting and paying over your vat".

 

If letters are Zero rated are you saying that special delivery and other 'over the post office counter' parcels are 20% rated, or vat is only chraged by carriers?

[edwincluck]

Mail may be zero rated, but Parcels through DHL/UPS/Parcelforce are not.

 

If letters are Zero Rated. are you saying that special delivery and other 'over the post office counter' parcels are 20% rated, or vat is only charged by carriers?

 

 

It's not just letters.. it's parcels up to 2 kilograms..

 

And... most importers have no choice in the courier(s) used, nor in the routing of the parcel.

 

Sellers in the USA simply take their parcels to the local office of the US Postal Service. None of the shipping options identify the courier that will be used to ultimately deliver the parcel in the destination country.

 

It is in the commercial interests of the state-owned Royal Mail Group to divert international parcels for local delivery by different subsidiaries of the group for revenue purposes.

 

Parcels (weighing up to 2 kilograms) can be arbitrarily diverted from delivery by Royal Mail personnel, to delivery by employees of ParcelForce Worldwide.

 

ParcelForce Worldwide is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Royal Mail Group Limited, which is 100% owned by Royal Mail Holdings plc, which is wholly state-owned.

 

Of course, officially, parcel routing is only determined for logistical reasons.

 

However, there are considerable financial incentives to override logistics.

 

The Government receives significantly higher revenues (£5.50 more in Duty Collection Fee, and typically an extra 20% in Import VAT on the cost of the item, its shipping and insurance) when a parcel is delivered by the wholly state-owned ParcelForce than it does when a parcel is delivered by the wholly state-owned Royal Mail.

 

Can that be fair?

 

That said, if it helps to plug the black hole in the Royal Mail pension fund, then hmm.... needs must?!

 

In truth, it's probably just another ruse to slap the Royal Mail into better shape in readiness for privatisation by NM Rothschild & Son.

Edited February 11, 2012 by edwincluck

[gaff4972]

It's not just letters.. it's parcels up to 2 kilograms..

Of course, officially, parcel routing is only determined for logistical reasons.

 

However, there are considerable financial incentives to override logistics.

 

The Government receives significantly higher revenues (£5.50 more in Duty Collection Fee, and typically an extra 20% in Import VAT on the cost of the item, its shipping and insurance) when a parcel is delivered by the wholly state-owned ParcelForce than it does when a parcel is delivered by the wholly state-owned Royal Mail.

 

Can that be fair?

 

That said, if it helps to plug the black hole in the Royal Mail pension fund, then hmm.... needs must?!

 

In truth, it's probably just another ruse to slap the Royal Mail into better shape in readiness for privatisation by NM Rothschild & Son.

 

The Royal Mail Network is just not set up for larger items nor is it set up to handle the express import items in such a way as the UPU (Universal Posta Union) requests. I think its a bit rich to consider this some kind of conspiracy. Up until 1990 the parcels arm of Royal Mail was integrated wholly - it became more financially viable (in terms of regulation) to separate.

 

I doubt the clearance fee was designed for the sole purpose of "plugging the pension fund". There is zero evidence to support this claim. But lets keep this thread on topic to avoid your obvious destain for royal mail infecting the thread.

[edwincluck]

The Royal Mail Network is just not set up for larger items nor is it set up to handle the express import items in such a way as the UPU (Universal Posta Union) requests. I think its a bit rich to consider this some kind of conspiracy. Up until 1990 the parcels arm of Royal Mail was integrated wholly - it became more financially viable (in terms of regulation) to separate.

 

I doubt the clearance fee was designed for the sole purpose of "plugging the pension fund". There is zero evidence to support this claim. But lets keep this thread on topic to avoid your obvious destain for royal mail infecting the thread.

 

Hmm... Not sure what to say to that.. I have a great amount of respect for the Royal Mail, its subsidiaries and its workers..

 

You appear to have inside knowledge, so maybe you should do the explaining...

 

And as for the "conspiracy theory", if you want to call it that, it goes a lot deeper than just the Clearance Fee.

 

Why does Parcelforce charge an additional 20% import VAT on the total shipping cost of items it ultimately delivers?

 

Import VAT on shipping is a charge that Royal Mail does not impose, even though Royal Mail and Parcelforce have the same state-owned parent company.

 

Let us also bear in mind that the destination courier is only one player in the chain of carriage of an international parcel.

 

In fairness, the 20% Import VAT should only be imposed on the proportion of the shipping cost that ParcelForce has actually borne. Why is VAT being charged on services provided by the US Postal Service, and on the leg of the carriage that was handled by DHL-Air?

 

By diverting imported parcels for ParcelForce delivery, rather than Royal Mail delivery, the Government receives 20% of the entire shipping cost, by way of import VAT.

 

There is an obvious incentive to divert parcels from Royal Mail to Parcel Force, at the point of delivery.

 

Simple Question:

 

Why are there different taxation policies for different subsidiaries of the same state owned entity?

Edited February 19, 2012 by edwincluck

[Bikersal]

Think yourself lucky as I've just purchased a motorbike rack from America on line total cost £105 incl post and Parcelforce are trying to charge me £199.56 before delivery! I have downloaded the form to dispute this with customs but it says you should have the label off the parcel to include! I'm going to try by copying the invoice and paypal receipts as I don't just have nearly £200 to risk! Also the item arrived at customs on 28 March but for some reason I didn't get the invoice until the 5 April!

[my-spirit-soars-free]

I would have thought the law is clear - the recipient does not have a contract with the courier, so has not agreed to pay any charge,

 

I also feel that the charges are not justified, they try arguing that they have to open the parcels for customs - but they don't charge on all parcels opened, so the charge can't be for that. They try claiming that the charge is for processing the payment - but they will be putting through one electronic payment for hundreds of parcels.

 

As far as I can see it is a total rip-off, and I have got the charge back from RM before now.

[Greenwash]

I have been sending parcels, all personal gifts, to the UK for 10+ years and I have never encountered a problem, i.e. a requirement to pay customs duy until 2012. All of a sudden, every gift, no matter how small, is being routed through ParcelForce and they are charging full customs plus their admin fee. There has definitely been a change in policy. Only if you send small personal items from the EU will they be delivered without customs charges.

 

The only solution as I see it is to start shopping on Amazon and other online retailers since they manage to avoid the customs duties (Amazon seems to avoid all taxes for that matter).

 

As word spreads, people will simply stop sending any gifts or other items to the UK. The customs duties, admin fees and postage usually cost more than the item is worth. Better to either send nothing or shop online if you absolutely must.

 

In the end, Royal Mail and Parcelforce and the government will have less revenue because there will be a decline in inbound UK shipments from outside the EU. (I have wondered about sending all my gifts to a friend in France so that he can just forward them on to the UK for me. He says that France doesn't charge customs on personal shipments, ie gifts coming into the country).

 

Is it a case where the UK is the only country following the EU customs rules??

[gaff4972]

There has definitely been a change in policy. Only if you send small personal items from the EU will they be delivered without customs charges.

The threshold on gifts was reduced from 1st Jan 2013. Dont like it? Speak to your MP - Dont blame Royal Mail.

 

The only solution as I see it is to start shopping on Amazon and other online retailers since they manage to avoid the customs duties (Amazon seems to avoid all taxes for that matter).

No, they dont. They pay the duties and taxes in a different way then regular consumers. (Some parcels from amazon store holders, internationally, may still get charged the normal way). Dont be fooled, there is (sadly) no magical route to avoid tax.