Cap1 & CCA return

[davefirewalker]

I agree, i've had a payout under sec 85. Barclaycard bottled it.

 

 

Paul

 

I'm working on it as we speak....a S.85 claim also forms part of my (large) poc

 

Dave

[car2403]

Hi Paul

 

I think this could be the next big thing after bank charges

 

Along with the issues of inaccurate Default Notices, I'd have to agree.

[un1boy]

Along with the issues of inaccurate Default Notices, I'd have to agree.

 

Harder to get settled though - my claim has been going for about 18 months now.

 

We should all report each instance to the OFT, making a list of the complaint numbers on this forum so that the OFT will have to act in the end - if we have evidence that the same lenders/dca's are systematically flouting the rules, the OFT will have to act, won't they?

[the main man]

We should all report each instance to the OFT, making a list of the complaint numbers on this forum so that the OFT will have to act in the end - if we have evidence that the same lenders/dca's are systematically flouting the rules, the OFT will have to act, won't they?

 

I agree, I think the more pressure that is put on the OFT the better. If their failures are exposed as much as possible before they gain new powers in April the more stringent they will have to be, or is that wishful thinking?

 

"In addition to the current rules relating to the debt collection sector, we are also introducing new laws that will strengthen and add flexibility to the regulatory options available to the OFT in operating the consumer credit licensing regime. The OFT has been given new powers by the Consumer Credit Act 2006, which come into force in April 2008. These will allow the OFT to place requirements on licensees to modify conduct and impose financial penalties of up to £50,000 for a failure to comply with a requirement. The OFT will also have new information-gathering powers, enabling it more effectively to monitor compliance by seeking information from licensed businesses about their activities including, for example, their debt collection practices.

In addition, the Act also gives the OFT powers to take into account a company's competence lawfully to provide credit when assessing fitness to hold a license. From April next year, the OFT will move to a strengthened gatekeeper role, requiring the provision of more information from businesses engaged in "high risk credit activities" such as debt collection at the application stage in order to satisfy itself that the business will be "credit competent". In some cases, it will commission an on-site visit and a report from Trading Standards."

[davey77]

...the OFT will have to act, won't they?

 

Nope! They don't care!

[paulwlton]

I need to know whether a creditor is allowed to omit the debtors name and address on copies. IMO they can't. This is IMPORTANT!

 

I contacted the OFT yesterday but they refused to comment. Will you guys check out below and give your opinion on the law.

 

 

4934

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

1983 No. 1553

CONSUMER CREDIT

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

Made

Laid before Parliament

Coming into Operation

24th October 1983

3rd November 1983

19th May 1985

 

 

 

4944 CONSUMER CREDIT

Regulation 2(1) SCHEDULE 1

INFORMATION TO BE CONTAINED IN DOCUMENTS EMBODYING REGULATED CONSUM

CREDIT AGREEMENTS OTHER THAN MODIFYING AGREEMENTS

. TYPE OF AGREEMENT

(I)

l. All types.

2. All types.

INFORMATION

(2)

Nature of agreement

(I) A heading in one of the following forms of word'

Shown prominently on the first page of the document (

 

a) "Hire-Purchase Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974";

 

(b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or

 

(e) "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer

Credit Act 1974",

as the case may require.

 

(2) Where the document and a pawn-receipt a

combined, the words ", and Pawn-Receipt," shall

inserted in the heading after the word "Agreement".

 

(3) Where the document embodies an agreement

Which at least one part is a• credit agreement n

regulated by the Act, the word "partly' shall be insert,

Before "regulated" unless the regulated and unreg

lated parts of the agreement .are clearly separate.

Parties to agreement

(1) The name and a postal address of the creditor

(2) The name and a postal address of the debtor.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

1983 No. 1557

CONSUMER CREDIT

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

 

Made

Laid before Parliament Coming into Operation

 

24th October 1983 3rd November 1983 19th May 1985

 

ARRANGEMENT OF REGULATIONS

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the .

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn

 

 

Paul

[car2403]

I need to know whether a creditor is allowed to omit the debtors name and address on copies. IMO they can't. This is IMPORTANT!

 

I contacted the OFT yesterday but they refused to comment. Will you guys check out below and give your opinion on the law.

 

 

4934

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

1983 No. 1553

CONSUMER CREDIT

The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

Made

Laid before Parliament

Coming into Operation

24th October 1983

3rd November 1983

19th May 1985

 

 

 

4944 CONSUMER CREDIT

Regulation 2(1) SCHEDULE 1

INFORMATION TO BE CONTAINED IN DOCUMENTS EMBODYING REGULATED CONSUM

CREDIT AGREEMENTS OTHER THAN MODIFYING AGREEMENTS

. TYPE OF AGREEMENT

(I)

l. All types.

2. All types.

INFORMATION

(2)

Nature of agreement

(I) A heading in one of the following forms of word'

Shown prominently on the first page of the document (

 

a) "Hire-Purchase Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974";

 

(b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or

 

(e) "Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer

Credit Act 1974",

as the case may require.

 

(2) Where the document and a pawn-receipt a

combined, the words ", and Pawn-Receipt," shall

inserted in the heading after the word "Agreement".

 

(3) Where the document embodies an agreement

Which at least one part is a• credit agreement n

regulated by the Act, the word "partly' shall be insert,

Before "regulated" unless the regulated and unreg

lated parts of the agreement .are clearly separate.

Parties to agreement

(1) The name and a postal address of the creditor

(2) The name and a postal address of the debtor.

 

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

1983 No. 1557

CONSUMER CREDIT

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

 

Made

Laid before Parliament Coming into Operation

 

24th October 1983 3rd November 1983 19th May 1985

 

ARRANGEMENT OF REGULATIONS

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the .

Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn

 

 

Paul

 

Stange the OFT didn't want to comment, as this is taken from their Document on the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983;

 

1.24 Does the copy have to be identical?

Reg 3(1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations requires that, subject to certain limited exceptions, any copy of an unexecuted agreement must be a ‘true copy’. This means that it must be identical to the agreement as presented or sent to the debtor for signature.

Reg 3(2) permits the exclusion from the copy agreement of:

1. • any information relating to the debtor, or included for the creditor’s use, which is not required by the Agreements Regulations;
   
2. • the name and address of the debtor; and
   
3. • any signature box

[paulwlton]

What's your opinion car.

[ncf355]

Paul,

 

why am I not surprised the OFT wont comment? - what are we paying these people our taxes for?

 

 

Anyway -

 

It's crystal clear -

 

Debtor name and address is required and must be included in any executed document copy given under the regs (Only exception being un executed copy under S62)

[ncf355]

"......The OFT has been given new powers by the Consumer Credit Act 2006, which come into force in April 2008. These will allow the OFT to place requirements on licensees to modify conduct and impose financial penalties of up to £50,000 for a failure to comply with a requirement.."

 

 

I'm sure theyll be using this new power as usefully and regularly as they use the current powers

 

Sarcastic?

 

Moi?

[paulwlton]

Paul,

 

why am I not surprised the OFT wont comment? - what are we paying these people our taxes for?

 

 

Anyway -

 

It's crystal clear -

 

Debtor name and address is required and must be included in any executed document copy given under the regs

 

 

So if the debtors name and address isn't included in the copy under sec 77 then they aint complied. Correct?

 

Paul

[car2403]

What's your opinion car.

 

My opinion is that they can provide a document with this information missing under a CCA request, as it's specifically covered under the regulations - in order to enforce the agreement, though, they would have to have the fully executed agreement to present to the Court.

 

If they supply something to you with your address missing, you'd have a right to query that with them and ask the question. If they respond with "we've complied with the regs", I'd be suspicious of their refusal to supply a true signed copy.

 

Also, under s.172, they are bound by what they've sent/said to you in reply - if you ask the question "do you have a true signed certified copy that is fully compliant with the Act" and they reply without answering the question, (although technically they are "omitting" information rather than "stating" it, but it would still likely give a cause of action) I'd say you would be within your rights to apply to the Court under s.142 and for ancillary issues outside of that. (Such as Default removal if no enforceable agreement, etc)

 

I know Peter has spent some time looking at this, with letters flying left right and centre to the OFT and his MP, (which I haven't bothered with, incidentally) so he might be able to shed some light on this.

 

IMHO, this is simply hiding behind the regs - send a CCA and DPA SAR request and they are bound by what is supplied. If they don't comply fully with further requests for information, it's a toss up as to whether they CAN comply or not.

 

I've seen your posts on your thread as well Paul - can you tell us more about why this is so important?

[paulwlton]

My opinion is that they can provide a document with this information missing under a CCA request, as it's specifically covered under the regulations - in order to enforce the agreement, though, they would have to have the fully executed agreement to present to the Court.

 

Could you point me to the relevant section of the regs that allows the creditor to omit the debtors name and address?.

 

Yes, i'm working on a story with a journalist. The story is scheduled for Saturday.

 

Paul

[ncf355]

Hi,

 

I dont agree

 

They will not have complied with s77 if the copy doesnt have the debtors name and address, crucial bit -

" General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

any information included in an executed agreement, security instru¬ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy"

 

 

 

[pford]

What about when they send you a copy of your agreement with all your details on but not signed bye you? You know this is a fake document because account opened 1989 you have moved twice since then agreement they sent with your present one on?

[paulwlton]

What about when they send you a copy of your agreement with all your details on but not signed bye you? You know this is a fake document because account opened 1989 you have moved twice since then agreement they sent with your present one on?

 

Exactly, this is why they are omitting the address.

 

Paul

[pford]

Exactly, this is why they are omitting the address.

 

Paul

but do they care i am still black listed can't even get my date of birth write but the cra say its write because the bank says it is?

[celebrity debtor]

Stange the OFT didn't want to comment, as this is taken from their Document on the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983;

 

 

this 1.24 paragraph is taken from

 

 

a draft document headed

 

Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 as amended by the 2004 Amendment Regulations

Consumer Credit (Disclosure of Information) Regulations 2004

Consumer Credit (Early Settlement) Regulations 2004

 

link

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft786a.pdf

 

so may i suggest ??? that the old regs apply to any case pre approx 29/4/05

[paulwlton]

What about when they send you a copy of your agreement with all your details on but not signed bye you? You know this is a fake document because account opened 1989 you have moved twice since then agreement they sent with your present one on?

 

Can you substantiate this?

 

Paul

[bfb]

you are looking at the wrong regulations the signature can be omitted but not the address

[bfb]

I see you have posted the copy documents regulations covering this that is what I was referring to regarding leaving out signature but not address

[pford]

 

Also, under s.172, they are bound by what they've sent/said to you in reply - if you ask the question "do you have a true signed certified copy that is fully compliant with the Act" and they reply without answering the question, (although technically they are "omitting" information rather than "stating" it, but it would still likely give a cause of action) I'd say you would be within your rights to apply to the Court under s.142 and for ancillary issues outside of that. (Such as Default removal if no enforceable agreement, etc)

 

Got a default on my credit report from the Halifax for a so called credit card they have confirmed to me its write + cra have written to them to confirmed all the information is correct , got copy back off cra from Halifax confirming that’s its right can this be classed as a statement under s172? even though wrong date of birth on both statements

[pford]

Can you substantiate this?

 

Paul

 

YES

if you ever need a copy of the fake agrement just ask.

[paulwlton]

YES

if you ever need a copy of the fake agrement just ask.

 

Could you email it me with details why it is fake. I'll pm you my email.

[pford]

Could you email it me with details why it is fake. I'll pm you my email.

will do over the next few days. on nights this week well past my bed time lol got to be at work at 21:30 still up