arthur071169 versus Clydesdale Bank

[arthur071169]

I have sent of my 1st letter today asking for the return of the charges over the past 6 years. I had received the old statements (for £10!) and waded through the lot.

 

I have used Vampiress's spreadsheet (but I am still incertain that it is 100% accurate, *please* can she get in touch...?) and have the initial numbers entered and printed for the managers viewing pleasure. I sent it today recorded delivery.

 

I (interestingly?) have an account with a branch in Aberdeen, Scotland, but I live in England. Therefore I should be able to claim the full 2 and a half grand (just under) that they owe me.

[arthur071169]

I got a letter from my manager - clydesdale bank, st nicholas branch, aberdeen scotland. (It is dated, therefore most usefull to know they received my initial request asking for my money back).

It goes like this.

 

"25th September 2006

 

Thank you for your recent letter regarding the repayment of the charges applied to your account over the last 6 years. To continue with your request, we require payment of £10.00. This is the standard fee due for looking back into your account for the above noted period of time. This fee is required in reference to the data protection act 1998. With your authority, we can debit your account for £10.00.

Please contact me to authorise payment.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Yours sincerely,

XXXXXX".

 

I suspect this is not only a delaying tactic (I shall write to confirm the date of 14 days is from the day they wrote to me as this is confirmation of my initial request being in their posession.), but also a pile of garbage!

Can anyone please confirm if is a lie, and has anyone else had this initial response to the first letter sent requesting repayment (I enclosed a full breakdown of charges, cost, date, and reason with my initial request).

I was told by the helpline (out of office hours) that the bank can only go back 3 months into my account. This MUST be rubbish as when you request a loan, they have a full history of your account on their system.

I want to reply ASAP informing them that their 14 days is ticking down...

PLEASE HELP!!!!

[muirton]

Hi Arthur

 

I am just about to put in the forms to the court, (after receiving half the amount) and I have not been asked for £10 from the bank anywhere in this process. Although the fact I had closed my account a while ago might have something to do with it.

 

I personally wouldn't be paying them, however if you want to be sure, you could always pay them and claim it back!

 

Best of luck

 

Karen

[k_shel]

If you've already paid £10 for all your statements you don't need to do this again. R

 

eply back indicating you have already paid the £10 Data protection max fee and remind them the clock is still ticking.

[arthur071169]

Well I sent this off today.

Should show Iam not messing around (and can talk like an adult, so treat me like one!)

 

PS, the tacky photocopy letter they sent me was laughable!

 

"Request for repayment of charges (initial request for repayment 22nd September 2006)

 

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

 

Good morning,

thank you for your letter dated 25th September 2006.

You state in your letter that you require payment of £10.00 in order to ‘look back into my account’. Firstly I find this ridiculous as your responsibilities as a bank require you to manage and maintain my account. In order to do this task you need access to my account at all times. I have loans from the Clydesdale Bank based on the analysis of my account, without having to pay a fee in order for this to happen. Secondly as a member of the Consumer Action Group, I am aware of other Clydesdale Bank/Yorkshire Bank customers who have had their requests complied with, and no fee has been incurred.

 

I am in possession of all my statements, and have based my request for repayment based on the information contained therein. I do not feel that I should fund a bank in order for it to analyse my account history. As my initial request was drafted on the 22nd of September I must remind you that I am providing you the initial 14 days to comply with my request for repayment of fees based upon that date. I have included a copy of my initial correspondence and the request, based on a breakdown of the fees accrued to date.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

Mr Arthur William Gill"

 

Lets see what happens.

 

Arthur,

[caro]

What a flaming cheek they have got. Well done for sticking to your guns Arthur.

[arthur071169]

Hi all.

I am just back from my holiday and what do I find on my doorstep but the 'standard' letter saying that the bank has acted in accordance with the standard terms and conditions.

Oh, the last part reads "...should you proceed straight to court action against the bank in respect of this matter, the Bank reserves the right to lodge a counter claim against you for damages suffered as a result of the breach by you of your contract with the bank."

 

So, I shall proceed to the second letter.

I may as well follow the pattern you have all followed so far... I am not going to begin court proceedings just yet.

 

another 14 days first.

[arthur071169]

Second letter posted today as follows..

 

Mr Arthur William Gill and Mrs Lynne Celeste Gill

(Address removed)

 

FAO Lynn Craib

Clydesdale Bank

62 Union Street

Aberdeen

Scotland

AB10 1WD

10th October 2006

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXX

 

I have received a letter (dated 3rd October) from Neil McKirdy, customer relations manager. This letter states that the bank has acted fairly and has pointed me toward your internal complaint handling procedures. I am disappointed this is the response I have received. I now understand that the regime of 'fees' which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations.

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary. I calculate that you have taken £2003.03 plus £350.36 which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £2353.06.

I am once again enclosing a copy of the schedule of the charges which I am claiming. I have already sent you a copy of this in my original letter of the 22nd September 2006 and my follow up letter on the 26th September 2006. Additionally if you have entered a default notice against my credit record and this default occurred in respect of unlawful charges levied by you, or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account, I would require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

I require repayment in full of this money and removal of any default notice. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus a claim under ss.7 and 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 plus my costs and without further notice.

 

Yours faithfully,

Mr Arthur William Gill, & Mrs Lynne Celeste Gill.

[arthur071169]

Quick question now I have sent this (and I am prepared to follow this through)..

I live in England, they (the money grabbing so and so's) and my account are in Scotland..

Would I fill in a money claim form online, or do I have to fill in a seperate form from the CAG document library - if so, which one.??

 

Also, (once again) the spredsheet looks 100% correct on the simple interest calculation, but the 8% one looks odd.

Is vampiress out there??????

 

Thanks for any assistance...

Arthur, slowly getting there.

[caro]

Vamp will probably be in her chambers. Have you sent all of your letters to Scotland? If so I believe that you will have to file in Scotland. Is there a local branch in England that you use? If so I suggest that you send a copy of the LBA to the English branch, and use that address for MCOL. Hopefully that will avoid the need to use the Scottish process, which I am afraid I can't advise on, as it is entirely different.

[arthur071169]

I sent the LBA to my scottish branch.

If and when I get a carcastic response, then I will send all corrospondence with the info that I intent to take this to court to... The branch I saw when I was in London on sunday!

I am giving my 'local' branch a chance, when that (will) fails I will issue *in* England to an *English* office.

[arthur071169]

Well, I got a letter from Neil McKirdy again...

They have 'reopened' my complaint (I did not close it, and was given 28 days before they were going to! - I shall point that out to him!) and will respond 'shortly' "and in any event within 28 days".

 

I shall write a nice letter to him, and post it here for you to read.

[arthur071169]

and now I start to mention a branch in england as a reference (MCOL via that one instead of my Aberdeen Branch!).

 

See what you all think of this one...

 

" Mr Arthur William Gill and Mrs Lynne Celeste Gill

[Address Removed]

 

FAO Neil McKirdy

Customer Relations Manager

Clydesdale Bank

16th October 2006

ACCOUNT NUMBER: XXXXXXXX

 

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your letter dated 12th October 2006.

Your letter states that “as requested, I have re-opened your complaint and a further review is being undertaken’

In your letter to me dated 3rd October 2006, you state “If we do not receive a response from you within eight weeks of the date of this letter, your complaint will be considered closed.”

Firstly, I did not write to you stating that this complaint was dealt with to my satisfaction, and secondly a period of eight weeks has not passed. Might I point out that you are not adhering to your own internal complaints procedures if you have had to ‘re-open’ my complaint.

Might I also point out to you that my letter to yourselves, dated 10th October stated “I require repayment in full of this money and removal of any default notice. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus a claim under ss.7 and 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 plus my costs and without further notice.”

This 14 day period is still valid and I therefore have replied to yourself with urgency, in the hope that my request is dealt with within the specified time.

I have sent a copy of this letter as a courtesy to my branch manager in Aberdeen and also I have sent a copy of all communications to the Clydesdale Bank branch in Gressham Street, London. This is in anticipation of any future correspondence that may occur. I am a resident of England and any further communication that I make after the 14 day period, I shall make with reference to a branch in England.

 

Yours faithfully,

Mr Arthur William Gill, & Mrs Lynne Celeste Gill.

[arthur071169]

In anticipation of having to MCOL.

I shall use the figures from the spreadsheet.

I shall fill in the MCOL 'standard' template.

Where and how do I then proceed, I understand I would have to make payment to the court (?) in advance of any action... Where do I send the MCOL to, do I need to send original copies of correspondence also, or photocopies...

Regards,

Arthur,

[arthur071169]

Well, MCOL sent 5 minutes ago.

 

DO I now need to post anything to the bank? (like the particulars *now showing* the 8% added extra claim as I have proceeded with the MCOL).

 

I have used a branch in England as I had to provide an english address for the defendant. I live in England, so I am ok, but I aould not use my Aberdeen Branch as an address.

Poor branch in London (whom I have alreayd sent a full collection of all my previous corrospondence to) will now probably be saying 'what the f**k?'.

 

£120 spent.

 

I listed the claim as 'penalty' (by date) and total amount of penalties.

I then claimed 8% on the cumilative penalties.

 

I then also listed the banks monthly interest charged to my account (by date) and total amount of interest as a penalty.

I then claimed 8% on the cumilative interest charged.

 

I hope this is the correct thing to do, a bit late now if it is not..

 

Now I start to worry!

[arthur071169]

just noticed, I am 1 day early with my MCOL...

But!!!!

there was no mail this morning, (and the submission seems to take 24 hours to action anyway MCOL wise).

Not my fault if (for example) the post arrives tomorrow with a letter from the bank.

They had 2 weeks to deal with my LBA and I did not receive a satisfactory response. As of midnight it is 14 days so they have missed the deadline.

 

Quite scary, this taking your bank to court.

BUT!!!! I am not that scared that I will not progress this as I feel I have had quite enough of their vamparic ways with my account.

[caro]

Only the overdraft interest on the unlawful charges should be claimed, but you have swindled yourself out of quite a lot of statutory (8%) interest as that applies from the date each charge was applied. As you say, too late to worry now.

[arthur071169]

The sum I obtained was based on Vampiress's spreadsheet, and I diligently put in each amount, and date for the sum that was taken each month.

I did not do it on just the 'sum total' but 8% 'over the period', if that makes any sense.

Anyway, the 8% figure is quite sizeable!!!

(and a decent amount of the actual sum taken in the first place)..

 

I am sure whoever is representing me will spot any flaws and point these out on my behalf?

 

 

 

Only the overdraft interest on the unlawful charges should be claimed, but you have swindled yourself out of quite a lot of statutory (8%) interest as that applies from the date each charge was applied. As you say, too late to worry now.

[caro]

I obviously misunderstood. I think that makes sense and guess it's OK then.

[arthur071169]

A quick update on developments (quite a few).

Firstly, after receiving my claim back in the post as 'undeliverable' even though there was a compliments slip from the branch in question atached..

I managed to claim by default (after 14 days).

I have had a lot of 'fairly' mature corrospondence with the usual names (Neil Mckirdy, and Kirstie Ross).

In a nutshel, I have had a prelim offer from Mr M of £9xx.xx.

I declined.

I have now had an offer of £1848. (the 'charges levied to my account and the £120 court costs).

 

The bank also asked me to sign a Tomlin order (which as a litigant in person, I am legally not allowed to do!).

 

Here is the main text from the letter..

"Our defence made it clear to the court that firstly, the charges have been levied in accordance with the terms and conditions of the account which you accepted when you opened the account. Secondly, that the charges have been levied as a result of your failure to adhere to the limits in place on your account and are therefore for the service provided by the bank in extending facilities to you. Thirdly, that the charges levied are a genuine pre-estimate of the cost incurred by the bank given the time and resources that are required to deal with such actions by customers. The charges are for the service the bank has provided to you in extending facilities to you.

 

Your assertion that the charges are a penalty and therefore unenforceable is misconceived: the law of penalties is only an issue in relation to breach of contract. You have not breached your contract with the bank as the terms and conditions provide for the event that you exceed your limit on your account"

 

Now, The whole crux of my claim is that the structure under which the bank charges customers is disproportionate to the 'costs' incurred by the bank based on the customers actions. Firstly the statement that they make "...the charges levied are a genuine pre-estimate of the costs incurred by the bank given the time and resourcesthat are required..." is the basis for my (and everyones) claim.

 

The bank cannot charge £25 for an automated computer system to flag an 'over the limit' setting. Nor can they charge £35 for *not* quthorizing a cheque when there are insufficient funds as all they did was 'refuse' to do anything... Then the fee is incurred by the customer.

 

As I *today* received a £25 'irregular fee' charge (even though the OFT stipulated that £12 would be a 'fair' sum - IE not what the banks are currently still charging me.. what would be the best actual defence when I stand before the judge?

 

If the judge decides to give the bank an extension (remember they were too late in replying to the MCOL as they 'could not find my account details, and said I had not passe dthat, or the breakdown of charges to them.. I had to 3 different branches, and a total of 6 times!!) I would like to know the correct wording for my claim.. I understand that I am claiming against 'unfair charges levied against my account based upon my handling of said account'.

 

Given that I have now had 2 offers of payment, but still short of the full sum requested, and that I am quite prepared to progress this matter to its end... I would likek a bit of feedback from others who have 'been up before the judge'.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you all.

 

Arthur071169.

[arthur071169]

Apologies for the typos, still quite fizzing after the letter I received this evening.

 

I am appauled that even with a judgement (by default) that the bank is attempting to delay this any further. Judgement was made on the 14th November for goodness sake! I am also quite shocked by the shoddy internal systems that on one day (23rd nov) offer the initial settlement , and then send a letter the next day (24th nov) say they are having difficulty in progressing my claim as they have insufficient information. This is where the money goes when they charge you a fee for a 'non intervention' action. (IE the computer says you are overdrawn, set a flag!).

I still 100% believe that my claim - based on the fact that the charges are a 'guesstimate' applied across the board, irrespective of individual circumstances - is not only just, but Blooming well obviously correct.

If they want to bring to court a structured breakdown of the costings alocated to customers who go over the agreed limit (ie can you PROVE that £1 overdrawn warrants the same 'irregular fee' (they even use the word FEE for god sake) as someone £40 overdrawn. I am sure that a lot of people will like to see a printed copy of the banks charging structure..

[arthur071169]

As an aside, the book you see advertised (small claims procedure: a practical guide) is actually quite good.

 

My wife manages small claims for a solicitors (handy!) and even she reckons it is a good 'basic' guide.

Especially usefull is the description of the AQ (aquisition questionaire) even tho the book version is out of date, the AQ has been simplified somewhat. Even less to fill in.

[arthur071169]

Just wondering if anyone has any feedback on my earlier question.

The bank has asked for judgement to be set aside.

I got judgement by default.

 

The defence letter arrived on my doorstep on fri, and I have formulated a reply to send to the court.

 

regards,

Arthur.

[caro]

I regret that you are not the first that Clydesdale have done this to and they have succeeded in their YB guise in getting 2 judgments setaside that spring to mind, Rachel 2609 and Dan-rides-Bike. Dan's case is in the successes forum, Rachels here as she has only just won her case, although her mum, who she was doing it for decided to let some of the interest go. Dan signed a Tomlin order and his payment took a while due, I believe, to this.

 

I am still getting my head round this so please bear with me while I ask a few questions you may have answered before.

 

1. Am I right in thinking that you have not heard from the Court on this?

2. When did you get judgment by default and what steps have been taken to enforce it.

3. Has Judgment been set aside?

4. Were the court papers served to Clydesdale in the end, and if not do the court know about this?

5. You seem to forget Arthur that no-one has been before the judge to discuss bank charges.

 

If memory serves me correctly, Trundlecat (also in Successes forum) saw a judge, I think about an application for her claim to be amended or struck out, but as she got a full offer that day, YB didn't bother attending. The Judge was very good and left the case open to make sure Trunny got her money.

 

I think your best bet is to fight a set aside. You don't need to respond to the defence as it hasn't been accepted by the court, and you can respond later if need be. Your case has already been put and you seem capable of answering their so called defence quite well later if you need to.

 

At the moment the question is, have you got judgment still or not? Clydesdale aren't in a position to decide that, although they may try to fight it.

[arthur071169]

Hi there Caro.. long time no chat.

Ok, a quick response to the questions..

 

 

1. Am I right in thinking that you have not heard from the Court on this?

 

I have heard from northampton, but not the court as yet.

 

2. When did you get judgment by default and what steps have been taken to enforce it.

 

Judgement by 14th November. I did not request a baliff, as that is a bit rude (as least the wife reccommended that it would be best to give the bank a 'chance' to respond.) I do not want the judge to think I am an unreasonable individual. I appreciate these things take time to process.

 

3. Has Judgment been set aside?

 

The request was made, but I have not heard if it has been set aside. I am sending my letter tomorrow pointing out (yet again) the errors in the defence from CB (they claim I have £xxxx in charges against my account (and they have offered to pay this amount, plus court costs) ... The sum is actually considerably more, so I once again will not accept. I also will indicate I am not allowed to sign the Tomlin order as a litigant in person. Also the defence 'witness' has 2 names and 2 different job titles according to the signed defence. (they should just pay up as their defence is turning into a joke... So many inaccuracies that if the judge is half as aware of them as I am, he will find the CB's documentation to be insulting, and a waste of time).

 

 

4. Were the court papers served to Clydesdale in the end, and if not do the court know about this?

 

They were indeed served.. Their 'internal' processes 'misdirected' the document as there was no record of my account on the papers.. Unfortunaltely the first part of the claim has my account number listed! The claim also has my name and address/postcode so they have zero chance of that being accepted as valid.

 

5. You seem to forget Arthur that no-one has been before the judge to discuss bank charges.

 

I don't mind if it does get that far. The defence is so poorly constructed and with so many inaccuracies that it would have failed GCSE level... Let alone a formal document to be addressed in a court of law.