#Employment : Tribunal help obtainning Documents

[Lanney50]

Hi can anyone please tell me if I have requested documentation from the respondents and have still not recieved them,even though my deadline is Friday for including any additional docs to the bundle were do I stand,the respondents are saying we can mutually agree an extension to the deadline is this allowed,or am I breaching the CMD order,Irang the Tribunaloffice but got no help ,anyone out there had simialar expierence.

[joesoap]

Hi can anyone please tell me if I have requested documentation from the respondents and have still not recieved them,even though my deadline is Friday for including any additional docs to the bundle were do I stand,the respondents are saying we can mutually agree an extension to the deadline is this allowed,or am I breaching the CMD order,Irang the Tribunaloffice but got no help ,anyone out there had simialar expierence.

 

We were at the Tribunal last year butfortunately the other side gave in before the end. However, the Judge had set a time limit for the bundles and I got the impression there was no scope for an extension. I would be very careful in taking the other side's word as Gospel. I do stand to be corrected though.

[madari]

You can certainly agree mutually to extend any time limits without informing the tribunal.

 

But if for any reason you do not wish to mutually agree, then you must write to the secretary and ask that your letter be put in front of a Judge who in turn will decide what to do.[and write to both parties]

 

But whatever you decide to do, do not be seen to be unreasonable in otherwords dont object to the respondents reasonable request unless it is a matter of importance.otherwise you may end up giving the ET the wrong impression about yourself.

 

If you do write to the ET then you must also copy the same letter and send it to the other side, so that they are aware.

[Lanney50]

thankyou very much for the advice,I was only concerned I would miss the deadline for the documents I have requested to be included in the bundle,I was afraid I would be in breach of the CMD order and jepodise my case.I will contact the respondents and agree an extension thanks again for the sound advice as a novice its a mine field for the self representer thanks

[Lanney50]

Hi bad day today seem to have hit the wall,struggling for advice tried CAB ,tried Acas,no help,think I need a day off the case really frustrated,is this how it is ? a long road maybe after a day off Il recharge batteries,will keep you all posted good job theres a forum for help cheers guys

[madari]

What is the problem....we dont have problems on here only solutions!!!!

[Lanney50]

Hi recieved letter from Tribunal services today thank god ,got an extension for my submission,feel a lot better now at least they know its the repondents dragging thier feet and not me,hopefully now I can proceed pity they werent as slow before they dismissed me,yesterday was first really bad day felt had no where to turn after a day off and a good sleep feel a lot better maybe now we can move on,thanks for your reply good to know someone was listening thanks very much for the suport.

[lilly of the valley]

Hi Lanney50

 

I wish you the very best and will be thinking of you. I love your spirit, many people would have given up because the respondents can be so horrible at times, you keep your head up and draw strength from all of us who are behind you in this.

 

Lolitta x

Edited April 29, 2011 by lilly of the valley
typing error

[Lanney50]

Hi Guys sorry another question,does anyone know if the Bundle contains investigatory statements from other employees ,do these need to be signed for the Tribunal,the respondents have added them to the bundle,these were taking during the intial investigation and are all un signed, the ones from the appeal meetings are all signed, would I be right in thinking if they intend to use them in the case they have all to be signed,or the person who made them has to attend the hearing Im sure I have read this somewhere can anybody enlighten me on this issue,Im sure Sarl advised another gagger on this but I cannot find the thread.

[madari]

Hi

 

The documents in the bundle,that you refer to, do not have to be signed as they are not `witness statements`, they are just documents that were relied upon during your employers own decision making process,following their own procedure.

 

I hope the above helps.

 

Good luck

[Lanney50]

thanks Madari that clears that one up,I must have misunderstood sorry to be a pain but it seems to be a mine field thanks for the advice much appreciated:-)

[joesoap]

Good luck.......and remember, the "Little People" do win. We (my wife) did. See Accident at Work by Joesoap.

[Lanney50]

Sorry I must have missunderstood,if the investigatory meeting notes by other employees taken during the intial investigation and are not signed by the person they interviewed ,how can they use them as they cannot be contested as the person who made them wont be there,I understand witness statements have to be signed and the witness will be there for cross examination,but if they are going to use and rely on the pre investagation notes as part of there defence of the case,how will the Tribunal decide if they are a true representation of what that person was saying,or what the HR person has decided to type up as to what they were actually saying ??confusing or what any thoughts

[RachelMD]

Quite simply, the witness statements gathered for the purpose of of the disciplinary process weren't meant for the the tribunal. Your time for challenging those statements was at the disciplinary hearing.

You need to press that at the ET. If say, the employers primary evidence was a witness statement from an employee, and they don't attend the ET to give evidence, then you need to emphasise that- why aren't they at the ET?

The respondant may try and introduce all sorts of evidence against you, any scrap they can throw. Your task is to direct the tribunal to challenge/disregard the evidence the respondant submits.

[madari]

Hi

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

[1] Tribunals are not bound by the same rules as criminal courts.[they are less formal]

 

[2] Whether the documents included in the bundle are signed or not signed is insignificant, as all the employer has to do is `form a reasonable belief` from the evidence gathered during their own investigation.

 

[3]The tribunals task is not to re-examine the case but simply to find that a fair procedure was carried out in making a final decision.

 

I suggest you google `British home stores v Burchell` it is a leading case that tribunals follow in all unfair dismissal claims and it is referred to as the `Burchell test`.

 

Good luck.

[Lanney50]

Thanks for the reply again as I said I must have misunderstood, will look up Burchell case thankyou for the advice much appreciated

[Lanney50]

Morning Guys been up most of the night really peed off,problem is I requested additionl documents from respondents on the 20th April they never sent them ,they said it would take time and we could mutually agree a new deadline,sceptical as I am I informed the tribunal and got a 2 week extension this Friday 13th (not a good day) to include any documents I wanted adding to the bundle,on Friday 5th May the respondents are now saying they think my request is unreasonable as they documents I want a few I might add will take them some time to find,my argument is they have had since the 20th April to do this ,they are now saying they will complain to the tribunal as they dont believe they are not relevant and asking why I want them for the case,my question is sorry guys ,can I also complain to the tribunal about this and would I also need to request another extension to the deadline as I still cannot get the information from them surely its upto me to decide what I want in the bundle not them.anyone out there with any advice please feel free to help,problem

[joesoap]

As far as I am aware you can ask for any document you like, obviously of course if it is relevant to your case. There is no reason why you can't compalin to to ET, but do it quick. Let them know that the employer is putting obstacles in the way.

[RachelMD]

Morning Guys been up most of the night really peed off,problem is I requested additionl documents from respondents on the 20th April they never sent them ,they said it would take time and we could mutually agree a new deadline,sceptical as I am I informed the tribunal and got a 2 week extension this Friday 13th (not a good day) to include any documents I wanted adding to the bundle,on Friday 5th May the respondents are now saying they think my request is unreasonable as they documents I want a few I might add will take them some time to find,my argument is they have had since the 20th April to do this ,they are now saying they will complain to the tribunal as they dont believe they are not relevant and asking why I want them for the case,my question is sorry guys ,can I also complain to the tribunal about this and would I also need to request another extension to the deadline as I still cannot get the information from them surely its upto me to decide what I want in the bundle not them.anyone out there with any advice please feel free to help,problem

Don't complain. The ET set a deadline for disclosure, the respondant should stick to it. If they don't diclose in time, then you complain.

If they complain, the ET will ask you for your version of events.

This is all par for the course. This is how respondants behave in the run up to an ET, particularly when they don't have a strong case.

They're looking to wind you up, and it's working, isn't it?

[madari]

Just Write to the Tribunal and inform them that the ducuments that you requested have not been disclosed and you feel that the respondents have flouted the extention that was granted to both parties by the ET and you are now `seeking an order from the tribunal` that the respondents disclose these documents.

 

In other words you are asking the ET to compell the respondents to release the documents that you need to see.

 

If they[the respondents] dont then they will have to explain their actions to the tribunal .

 

Dont let them bully you,they think that they are in the driving seat.....they are not ,you are!!!

[Lanney50]

Thanks Guys dont know what I'd do without this forum great advice really apprieciate all the support will contact the Tribunal today and ask them to order the disclosure stating they have flouted the extension yet again, dont know how they expect me to get the docs when they have them all in thier possesion,this hopefully should get them moving,they seem to now be indicating its going to be time consuming for them so Im expecting a letter at any time threatening cost thanks again will keep you posted,thanks for all your responses.Thank god others have been through similar and can give such good advice and support to others .

[madari]

Hi

 

You are again missing the point, you have to make the request in writing to the the ET for a disclosure order, include in your letter the importance of the documents requested and how the respondents have flouted the extention that was set by the ET.

 

As for a costs order against yourself,if this does happen then you just take it with a pinch of salt,as no tribunal in the whole of the UK is going to grant them costs agains you at this point.

 

Good luck.

[madari]

Forgot to mention one thing, If you do write to the ET then you must also send a copy letter [with a cover letter]to the respondents.

 

That way the respondents are made aware of your actions in advance, they also have to send you a copy of any letters that the write to the ET.

 

Otherwise you will be viewed as being unreasonable, and we dont want that do we?

[Lanney50]

Thanks for the advice Madari, I have emailed the Tribunal and copied the respondents in, and I have just come back from the post office after posting my follow up letter outlining my reason for the complaint to the Tribunal in Leeds and have also copied the respondents again ,I managed to get proof of postage so they cannot say they never recieved anything,as they have tried this before so hopefully now this will move things on,Thanks again for advice and support much apprieciated:-)

[Lanney50]

Morning guys been going through the bundle the respondents have sent and to be honest some of the docs are not even to do with the case I think they have just put them in to make the bundle look good and try to time waste,some of the docs Ive never even seen before Im still waiting my request for further information since the 20th April I have asked the Tribunal to assist in this matter,I have just recieved an email a little agitated I think from the respondents saying they think my request is unreasonable as they dont see how some of the docs I have requested are relevant to the case,yet and they are complainning to the Tribunal yet they have filled the bundle with useless pages of crap not even relating to the case,can I ask these worthless pieces be taken out, can I sugguest to them we take some out as they are not relevant to the case and alow some of mine in, if its an agreed bundle dont we both agree what goes in it what we both agree relevant to the case ,any help gratrfully recieved.