Need Advice with mechanically failure on taxi?

[StinkyFeet]

Hi all,

 

In a little pickle and looking for some pointers please if possible.

 

My taxi (gets mot'd twice a year every six months) had mot in November 2010 and had 3 items that needed repairing, both headlights aiming too high and split CV boot strap. Not big problems. The mot was carried out at a Ford Dealership for local council mot test and I authorised these repairs to complete mot.

 

In december 2010, there was a knock that started to develop on the front driver wheel. Knew the sound from other side and other similar vehicle in the past, lower arm / ball joint warn. I booked it in with a mobile mechanic to have it changed at £120.00.

 

A few days later the lower arm gave way sending the wheel to the side of the vehicle which was travelling at 30mph.

 

My driver who was driving had leg and hand injuries trying to bring vehicle to stop.

 

I had the vehicle recovered and was advised by recovery company that the lower arm had failed, I am no mechanic but looking at it, it didn't look like it had been changed at all.

 

There was so much damage that I put it through insurance whom send a investigator to report on it. The report came back as mechanical failure due to this arm and insurance was looking at rejecting the claim.

 

However, they have now agreed to the repair with bill of £1500 as long as I pay the excess (normal routine) and the suspension / lower arm. This is fine at min to get vehicle back in motion.

 

I have all evidence and receipts showing work done etc but have been unable to get any local solitor on board to help take the matter further with the mechanic.

 

My driver is looking at compensation and I feel that it will be me / insurance that his solicitors will go for.

 

There where 3 passengers whom didn't have any injuries and I should add they werent wearing any seatbelts.

 

I have spoke to the mechanic whom said he wants copy of the inspection report and also wants to take arm off and send it back to supplier to be examined, little concerned about agreeing to that as vital bit of evidence, be bit like police letting a suspected murderer into crime scene to collect a knife for a fatal stabbing.

 

So at this point, Im thinking about sending by special delivery to both the mechanic and supplier the inspector report along with photos I took at the scene of it, upon delivery I will have the signature of recipient who signs for it and confirmation of delivery.

 

Really lost here, its been a horrible start to new year and looking for any pointers possible of what / where / do next.

 

Again, a very big thank you, hope haven't rambled to much

Edited January 27, 2011 by StinkyFeet

[heliosuk]

What exactly were your instructions to the mechanic and what exactly did he change? Can you give a verbatim from his invoice? And, would it be a Mondeo by any chance?

Why are solicitors shying away, they must have a reason?

[StinkyFeet]

Thank you for getting back to me. No its a Peugeot.

 

He was told to change the suspension arm as the balljoint is where the problem was and you cannot change the balljoint only with this Peugeot as it is factory pressed into the whole suspension arm.

 

His invoice says, 'to supply and fit suspension arm'.

 

The solicitors I have contacted, only 2 at present although helpful dont deal with this sort of thing, one accident, injury solicitor and the other criminal defence.

Only being a small area in which I live, haven't got much choice in solicitors.

 

Thank you for your help

[heliosuk]

OK I can see something here. The insurance co have agreed to pay out I think as a result of "consequential damage" from the failure of a part. The issue you have I believe is what the cause was.

It is possible to change the joint without changing the whole arm but I would question why the mechanic took this route especially for £120 when a new one usually comes with ball joints and bushes pre-fitted. If he did change the arm or ball joints then he is entitled to ask for it back to be returned under the parts warranty for investigation by the supplier and or manufactuer. However, most suppliers only cover the part with explicit terms and conditions that they do not cover consequential damage as a result of it failing which is frankly unfair. The next hurdle will be your mileage and use of the vehicle. Many suppliers and manufactuers explicitly restrict warranties where "vehicles are used for reward". This is often something also frequently overlooked by PHV drivers when selecting a car and don't fully realise the knock on effect. It's hogwash in reality as you would expect a car to last XYZ number of miles. The only difference being that XYZ is covered more rapidly.

 

What I would do as regards the mechanics request is to ask for the supplier and copy of the invoice supplied as you are entitled to send it back yourself. You can keep him informed of developments. If genuine then he should agree to this. The report will either come back positive or negative with a reason for it's failure and then you can take it up from there.

 

I wouldn't take too much credence from the insurer repaort as all he/she is doing is assessing the vehicle from a financial point of view and giving details of the failure. The inspector will not give and is not qualified to give a report as to the root cause of the failure.

 

One thing you mention in your OP is that the passengers were not wearing seat belts. Whilst you cannot make them wear them your driver has a responsibility to ensure they are told to put them on. Perhaps something you need to address??

[tommy.king]

Hi, I get the impression that a solicitor wont act for you. the reasons are as follows

 

Your car has been repaired so you cannot claim this from the person, once the insurance pay you cannot male someone else claim.

Personal injury for the driver, what did he do?

 

And the big reason, if the solicitors are going to chase a person or small company, it will take a lot of time and cost and might not be recoverable, e.g entered into small claims court or person will just vanish,

 

There is 1 concern I have, was the MOT failed because of the suspention, then changed and you passed?

[StinkyFeet]

Thank you so so much for all your replies, I am so truly grateful.

 

To confirm that the suspension arm didn't not get picked up on MOT, it was few weeks later after MOT when it started to tap occasionally hence the reason why I had it changed as like to stay on top of vehicle and keep in tip top condition.

 

The suspension arm was only on the vehicle for a matter of 10 days when it failed, even from a reward view, it should last longer then this shouldn't it and 200 miles?

 

Many thanks for the details about forwarding to supplier / manufacturer myself, hadn't thought of this and def way of going.

 

The driver hurt leg and wrist and is looking to make a claim, however, like you have stated and what I thought all along, I be lucky to merely get suspension arm payment refunded and any other claim is what I thought and you have confirmed, difficult due to it possibly costing more to take him to court then what could be rewarded afterwards.

 

Big thank you

[tommy.king]

Hi again.

 

It apears that you must be the car owner and not te driver.

Ths does seem like a case that solicitors can take on but only on a diffrent method.

 

The driver can persue a claim with a no win no fee solicitor, he has to inform them that the car was someone elses.

The Solicitors can then attempt to sue the person (mobile machanic) and if he vanishes altimatly your insurance would have to pay the loss.

If the mobile machanic has a insurance policy in place it will make life easier, and you will stil have a no claims bonus. you may want to phone him to see if he has work insurance.

 

 

Hope this helps. and please be clear as to the owner of the car and the person injured, when dealing with solicitors use their names. If you are having difficulty getting a no win no fee solicitor message me privately and I will see if any of my panel will take it on.

 

Regards T.K

[heliosuk]

Hi again.

 

It apears that you must be the car owner and not te driver.

Ths does seem like a case that solicitors can take on but only on a diffrent method.

 

The driver can persue a claim with a no win no fee solicitor, he has to inform them that the car was someone elses.

The Solicitors can then attempt to sue the person (mobile machanic) and if he vanishes altimatly your insurance would have to pay the loss.

If the mobile machanic has a insurance policy in place it will make life easier, and you will stil have a no claims bonus. you may want to phone him to see if he has work insurance.

 

 

Hope this helps. and please be clear as to the owner of the car and the person injured, when dealing with solicitors use their names. If you are having difficulty getting a no win no fee solicitor message me privately and I will see if any of my panel will take it on.

 

Regards T.K

 

With respect TK, if you are going to reply to a thread then please read it. Whilst you have every right to voice an opinion some of your comments are frankly somewhat irritating and I sincerely hope you are not touting for business as per your last sentence.

[tommy.king]

With respect TK, if you are going to reply to a thread then please read it. Whilst you have every right to voice an opinion some of your comments are frankly somewhat irritating and I sincerely hope you are not touting for business as per your last sentence.

 

Hi Please explain what you mean. It appears that you may not have read the listing yourself.

 

The person has said he has a car,

The car was repaired by a mobile machanic

There was a driver who got injured (not the car owner) and he will be persuing a personal injury claim because his hand and leg got injured

 

What do you advise? nothing

 

My advise - get a solicitor and get the solicitor to chase the mechanic, but unfortunatly if costs cannot be recovered from the mechanic his own insurance would have to cover the bill. Plenty of solicitors will take this case on as a NWNF. If he cannot get a Solicitor I will gladly assist.

 

Regards T.K

[heliosuk]

TK, I just can't be bothered anymore. In automotive engineering terms it's often called Plysteer Residual Alingning Torque.

[traffer]

So, a suspension arm with ball joint was replaced. It then failed for a reason that was probably due to a design or manufacturing fault. The manufacturer of the part should be taking an interest in this because if there are a batch out there that can fail resulting in the risk of the vehicle going out of control then they should be dong something about it. First port of call, would be VOSA who take great interest in any failure that can lead to unsafe vehicles.

 

Your insurance company may well peruse a claim against the manufacturer/importer of the part if it is proven to be faulty in order to recover their losses. I am surprised they have not been in contact to request the "evidence"

 

Was the ball joint that failed on the same wheel where the CV boot was replaced? How many miles from CV boot replacement to ball joint failing and needing replacing?

[MARTIN3030]

Hope this helps. and please be clear as to the owner of the car and the person injured, when dealing with solicitors use their names. If you are having difficulty getting a no win no fee solicitor message me privately and I will see if any of my panel will take it on.

 

My advise - get a solicitor and get the solicitor to chase the mechanic, but unfortunatly if costs cannot be recovered from the mechanic his own insurance would have to cover the bill. Plenty of solicitors will take this case on as a NWNF. If he cannot get a Solicitor I will gladly assist.

 

Regards T.K

 

 

Yes TK your comtinual suggestions of solicitors both on this and other threads,is causing alarm.

If it continues,then the site team will have to look at moderation of your account.

CAG is a free help site.

[dawahis]

This Forum is great

[StinkyFeet]

So, a suspension arm with ball joint was replaced. It then failed for a reason that was probably due to a design or manufacturing fault. The manufacturer of the part should be taking an interest in this because if there are a batch out there that can fail resulting in the risk of the vehicle going out of control then they should be dong something about it. First port of call, would be VOSA who take great interest in any failure that can lead to unsafe vehicles.

 

Your insurance company may well peruse a claim against the manufacturer/importer of the part if it is proven to be faulty in order to recover their losses. I am surprised they have not been in contact to request the "evidence"

 

Was the ball joint that failed on the same wheel where the CV boot was replaced? How many miles from CV boot replacement to ball joint failing and needing replacing?

 

Thank you so much for your reply, Im a little upset that I seemed to have caused a bit of a stir in here, that wasn't ever my intention, my budget stretched due to this and we are now struggling once again and now in arrears with mortgage.

 

The taxi has done roughly 200 miles since the CV boot was changed and it is on the same side. The suspension arm was changed 6 weeks later and lasted 10 days. I will post photos of it all as that would give more of a idea of it all.

 

I have decided that to keep things simple, could somebody advise how I take the matter further to small claims court?

 

Thank you and sorry guys, please dont fall out with each other.

[heliosuk]

I do think you need to know why the part failed first before you go down the SCC route. Posting the pictures would really help as it will be pretty obvious if the arm had been changed or not. I reckon that's the first step before anything else. If he hadn't changed it then he's fair game to pursuit but if he did then it's the supplie/manufactuer of the part you need to be going after in the bigger picture though no doubt the mechanic will get drawn into it as well in some way.

[StinkyFeet]

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[StinkyFeet]

I do think you need to know why the part failed first before you go down the SCC route. Posting the pictures would really help as it will be pretty obvious if the arm had been changed or not. I reckon that's the first step before anything else. If he hadn't changed it then he's fair game to pursuit but if he did then it's the supplie/manufactuer of the part you need to be going after in the bigger picture though no doubt the mechanic will get drawn into it as well in some way.

 

Many thanks heliosuk, have uploaded photo's as this gives far better picture.

 

The last 2 are pictures of the scene when all went wrong.

 

The previous ones are the unit now in my possesion, as you will see this unit is not new and was only on the vehicle for 10 days.

 

Also pictured is pinch bolt that have been advised bolts suspension arm to hub, noted how bent this is as well as really rusty and old. New parts requested and paid for, dont think new parts here.

 

Many thanks

Edited February 4, 2011 by StinkyFeet
Forgot to include note on pinch bolt

[heliosuk]

Stinky that's just brilliant and just reinforces the need of not to jump to conclusions.

 

I think what has happened here is as follows.

 

The arm has clearly not been changed so your mechanic is in the doo doo for charging you for something not carried out.

 

Now to the interesting part.

 

In picture 2 there are marks concurrent with the arm being interfered with by way of a square pry bar being used with some force and perhaps some hammering involved. This would generally be the case when seperating the ball joint from the "knuckle" especially when having to change a CV joint or boot.

 

What I could do with is a picture of the repair to the CV joint boot strap. Generally if it is the strap that has failed then you cut it off and put a cable tie around it. If the split is in the boot itself then it's the knuckle off which means the dropping of the FLCA (front arm).

 

I reckon whoever has done the repair to the CV boot has left the pinch bolt loose. You can see in pic 5 that it has recently been undone. If you look at the bolt in pic 5 you will notice a flat bit which is where it contacts the groove in the ball joint stem. The groove is more shiny which indicates it's been moving.

 

Therefore and this would give you the same symptoms, you thought the joint in the arm or joint had gone which in fact is probably not correct. It will give the same symptoms as being u/s but I reckon the joint popped out because it was loose. That ball joint has not failed in the pictures.

 

So now you have two options.

[StinkyFeet]

Stinky that's just brilliant and just reinforces the need of not to jump to conclusions.

 

I think what has happened here is as follows.

 

The arm has clearly not been changed so your mechanic is in the doo doo for charging you for something not carried out.

 

Now to the interesting part.

 

In picture 2 there are marks concurrent with the arm being interfered with by way of a square pry bar being used with some force and perhaps some hammering involved. This would generally be the case when seperating the ball joint from the "knuckle" especially when having to change a CV joint or boot.

 

What I could do with is a picture of the repair to the CV joint boot strap. Generally if it is the strap that has failed then you cut it off and put a cable tie around it. If the split is in the boot itself then it's the knuckle off which means the dropping of the FLCA (front arm).

 

I reckon whoever has done the repair to the CV boot has left the pinch bolt loose. You can see in pic 5 that it has recently been undone. If you look at the bolt in pic 5 you will notice a flat bit which is where it contacts the groove in the ball joint stem. The groove is more shiny which indicates it's been moving.

 

Therefore and this would give you the same symptoms, you thought the joint in the arm or joint had gone which in fact is probably not correct. It will give the same symptoms as being u/s but I reckon the joint popped out because it was loose. That ball joint has not failed in the pictures.

 

So now you have two options.

 

To update, Ford Dealership on mot repaired the 'inner velocity boot gator' and sorted both n/s & o/s headlamps which where aiming too high, just checked paper work to make sure Ive put in correct repairs, does this help?

[StinkyFeet]

I contacted by email the supplier to the mechanic as he stated that he wanted to remove part and return to them to be checked, and as Andrew Page LTD is a well established part supplier whom I felt wouldnt supply 2nd hand / salvage parts, I thought it only right to get a update from them.

 

I included photos of the part and there reply merely stated that they would welcome the part to be forwarded to them for further investigation.

 

Im concerned as the part to me is of vital importance and evidence, should it go missing, my case becomes harder.

 

I note that the part has letters and numbers wrote on it in yellow writing which makes me feel, and stated by the insurance inspectors, that part was changed but not with a new unit, that of a salvage part and pinch bolt etc where transfered from the old unit.

[heliosuk]

I've just checked Andrew Page Ltd and I would say that the chances of them supplying such a part are virtually nill unless you have uncovered some [problem] going on that they don't know about. You need to ask them if they supplied a new arm to the mechanic on or around the day in question. If they did then thats another issue.

 

However, as you rightly point out, the yellow markings are consistent with it being a used part or the original part. I'm pretty sure now that what has happened is that the mechanic has used a used part. This is concurent with the oxidisation on the joint surfaces. I could not get a clear look from the pics but as previously stated it has been left loose and popped out. The mechanic could not have possibly tightened it up.

 

So now all the info is there on the balance of probabilities it is down to the mechanic which brings me back to earlier post as to how he did it for £120. Without doubt though I think we can safely say where the blame lies.

 

The mechanic could potentially argue "what did you expect for £120" but it still doesn't get him off the loose tightening and even if he argued that he tightened it, you always change the fixings, certainly the nut and the unfogiveable thing which has possibly caught him out is the oxidisation/rust on the taper. He had no hope of achieving the required clamping force with the part in that condition.

 

The witness marks of the pry bar are therefore explained by him not following the correct fitting procedure in that the arm was fitted and tightened and than forced down to get it into the knuckle. A consequence would have been, if tightened in this sequence, you would have started to see excessive tyre wear!!

[tommy.king]

Hi please send us pictures of the hub, and also a picture on the underside of the hub. check if the wishbone fits into the hib in the currant position.

 

regards TK

[heliosuk]

Hi please send us pictures of the hub, and also a picture on the underside of the hub. check if the wishbone fits into the hib in the currant position.

 

regards TK

 

Why?.............. it will fit into the knuckle/hub. That's how it came/fell out!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The car has been repaired and all the necessary pics have been posted. If you can't see the issue from these then perhaps it is better you keep quiet though all contributions are gratefully received if they are going to add value.

 

Further, the car has been repaired so is not representative of the pre failure condition. You are obsucring the issue here.

 

What the OP decides to do is his choice but you need to understand the nature of the thread. The OP has not got the time or money to phaff around and take pics. Did you not see it's a working car which to earn it's keep needs to be on the road?

 

TK....... you are free to post but you are starting to waste peoples time with suggestions that are irrelevant, totaly off the mark and have no relevance to the question the op asked.

 

The OP has to an extent pointed this out so in the case of this particular thread please leave alone.

[StinkyFeet]

Thank you so much for your replies although am sad to see a dispute still occuring.

 

To advise, garage who fully repaired vehicle which I collected today have changed the hub also as a precaution as they felt it be in the best interest for safety etc under the circumstances. They felt the original hub was not badly warn, but due to what had happened, the recommended it get changed with the new suspension arm and driveshaft and I agreed.

 

The vehicle is running very well apart from a little judder on that side occassionally, however I haven't had that tyre changed or balancing / tracking check yet as no tyre garage open till monday.

 

Believe that is the problem and only slightly noticable on that side tyre when turning a corner with minimum weight on that tyre.

 

With regard to the price of the suspension arm, the new unit supplied and fitted (nice shiny unit from Peugeot) was indeed only £134 fitted from garage so £120 wasn't a low reduction to that, only difference is this once is definately new.

 

Big thank you always, your help has been great

[heliosuk]

What the repairing garage has done is good practice given what we think is the failure mode i.e. the pinch bolt was left loose. I don't believe I'd have any problem in your taxi unlike some of the ones I use where wheel bearings sound as though on last legs and suspension bushes obviously over their life!! The tracking should have been checked as part of the repair but you need to be carefull when trying to attribute any vibration as a direct consequence of what happened. Because of the nature of the failure it is possible the arm from the rack to the hub has been damaged, not immeadiatly visible but measurable in any case. Invariably the rack rod ends will be worn as they tend to deteriorate at the same rate as suspension arm joints.

 

As a rule of thumb so to speak, nearly every car part now in use is designed and tested to last 10 years or 150K miles whichever occurs first. Therefore after this mileage you need to keep an eye on things on a more so regular basis.