Non payment of rail fare letter

[DMC1984]

Hi,

I have just received a letter from the debt recovery and prosecutions unit from Northern Rail regarding an incident of a non-payment of rail fare. Saying they want to give me the opportunity to respond regarding it. Failure to provide a satisfactory explanation with regard to this incident will result in legal action being taken.

On Christmas Eve i travelled from Handforth train station to Manchester Piccadilly around 15.00. The ticket office was closed as it is only run part time til 13.30, so i was unable to buy a ticket there. I own a GMPTE season ticket card that allows travel within Greater Manchester however Handforth is one stop outside. I own this as i travel on 3 different routes within Greater Manchester fairly regularly so it allows me to own one ticket to cover them all. The ticket inspector confiscated my pass on the train and said it was because i was using a ticket outside the correct area. I had offered to pay the one stop journey like i normally do but he wasn't having any of it. So basically I wasn't given any chance to even pay. I provided him with my name and address when asked, nothing was written down at the time and i didn't sign anything. He barely said a word to me, in fact he walked off after he had taken my details and i had to speak to him on the platform at Man Pic to ask him what was going on, to which he said he was going to report me to Northern Rail. I thought if i was unable to buy a ticket at a station i could buy on the train without any problem? What are the likely consequences of this? Can anyone advise?

Many thanks,

[RPI]

I am not familliar with that area so bear with me, was there a self service ticket machine at the station that you boarded at?

[DMC1984]

hi, no there isn't a self service ticket machine there.

[SRPO]

As Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Handforth station, you should have been able to purchase an extension....unless the inspector believed the fare to be at risk.

I suggest you contact them & ask what the allegation against you is, unless of course you already know & have'nt posted it.

[Wriggler7]

At 'early stages' of a thread, there always seem to be more questions than answers.

 

Was the inspector satisfied that you got on at Handforth? Is it possible that he thinks that you got on 'further afield'.

 

We are all 'southerners' and don't know the area, but many railways have stations where it is well known that there are no facilities, and 'many' passengers without tickets will have claimed to have got on there.

 

Is your home address 'further afield'. (Don't post your home address on here) If it is, the inspector may suspect something a bit 'naughtier'. (Ultimately, what he suspects is not important, what he can prove is) For example, is it possible that on that evening, there was a flock of inspectors at Handforth taking part in a revenue exercise, and everybody getting on there was 'checked'?

 

At face value, you should have been allowed to pay the excess fare. Our questions arise from why the Inspector didn't see it that way.

[DMC1984]

At 'early stages' of a thread, there always seem to be more questions than answers.

 

Was the inspector satisfied that you got on at Handforth? Is it possible that he thinks that you got on 'further afield'.

 

We are all 'southerners' and don't know the area, but many railways have stations where it is well known that there are no facilities, and 'many' passengers without tickets will have claimed to have got on there.

 

Is your home address 'further afield'. (Don't post your home address on here) If it is, the inspector may suspect something a bit 'naughtier'. (Ultimately, what he suspects is not important, what he can prove is) For example, is it possible that on that evening, there was a flock of inspectors at Handforth taking part in a revenue exercise, and everybody getting on there was 'checked'?

 

At face value, you should have been allowed to pay the excess fare. Our questions arise from why the Inspector didn't see it that way.

 

Hi, i don't think he thought i'd got on earlier but maybe that was his thinking. I've never seen any revenue inspectors at Handforth. From what i can tell he suspected my home address was outside the area (which it is and i have work reasons for having this train pass as i explained earlier). Once i had given my address he must have known this and thats why i have the letter. I've written a reply letter but the only thing that confuses me is why the letter they sent says non-payment of rail fare when in actual fact that wasn't really the case. I wasn't given the opportunity to do so and therefore in the end i didn't pay the extra stop. The inspector in question even walked off and i had to approach him at Man Pic asking him what was going on. Thats when he said he was reporting me and it's up to Northern Rail what they do. He was particulary aloof towards me. Surely this can't go to court?

[DMC1984]

I've just rang the department to try and get the full facts and the lady has said they want to know why i was using my pass from Handforth on the day in question when it only applies from Cheadle Hulme. She says at this stage i just need to provide an explanation about the events that day.

[Wriggler7]

Yes, it can go to Court. Without seeing all of the evidence, I cannot say whether it would succeed at court, but there is 'enough' for an allegation. (I think)

 

I have to try to be a bit tactful, and I regret that I am not very good at it! Remember that the railway will have access to the CCTV at stations along your route. If it is possible that they can find film of you entering the station near you home, and if they can also show footage from the station where you say you got on the train, you could be in for a rough ride, unless you 'get religion', and accept that you have been caught.

 

They will also have records from Hanforth showing whether the ticket machines were or were not working. If they were, then the evidence is already 'good enough' to prove an offence. The bad news is that you will not know what they can prove until they make primary disclosure, that is to say, send you a copy of the basic evidence, whic is at the same time as service of summons.

[DMC1984]

Yes, it can go to Court. Without seeing all of the evidence, I cannot say whether it would succeed at court, but there is 'enough' for an allegation. (I think)

 

I have to try to be a bit tactful, and I regret that I am not very good at it! Remember that the railway will have access to the CCTV at stations along your route. If it is possible that they can find film of you entering the station near you home, and if they can also show footage from the station where you say you got on the train, you could be in for a rough ride, unless you 'get religion', and accept that you have been caught.

 

They will also have records from Hanforth showing whether the ticket machines were or were not working. If they were, then the evidence is already 'good enough' to prove an offence. The bad news is that you will not know what they can prove until they make primary disclosure, that is to say, send you a copy of the basic evidence, whic is at the same time as service of summons.

 

Ok, well like i've said Handforth doesn't have any ticket machines and the ticket office was definately closed. I'm accepting that i got on at Handforth though, it's that i had shown my pass and it looked like i was trying to con the ticket man. Thank you for your input so far.

[RPI]

Based on what you have told us and on the assumption that you are being truthful with us then I think Northern will have difficulty proving "intent" on this one, the byelaw offence isn't relevant as there were no facilities for you to buy a ticket, what do you think Old codja?

[JJF]

Here is my story and what resulted, whilst not identical, it does have common threads with this case.

 

I have a national concessionary bus pass issued by my local authority. Under a local agreement between the LA and local TOC, this permits half price travel within a defined area on the train companies network. My local station is manned part time and the ticket machines do not issue the 50% discount tickets as they are not programmed to do so. In addition, the former 'permit to travel' machines were removed and no such facility is available from the machines. Through work, (not in the rail industry) I happen to know the ticketing manager for the TOC and asked him what procedure I should follow to avoid having to pay full price for a ticket or risking a penalty fare. The advice I was given is this:

 

If you are unable to purchase a valid ticket for your journey or a permit to travel, you cannot be given a penalty fare or prosecuted provided you either a) purchase a child ticket for the journey (which equates to the correct fare) and present it to the ticket office at the destination for exchange for a correct ticket. b) Purchase a ticket for part of the journey and use this to exchange for a correct ticket at the destination or c) and this is the important one - travel without a ticket and purchase one at the first available opportunity, either from an on board ticket inspector or from the destination station.

 

The ticketing manager explained that where you are unable to purchase a valid ticket at your origin station, no offence is committed provided you purchase a ticket at the first suitable opportunity.

 

On one Saturday afternoon when the local ticket office was closed, I found the ticket machine to be not accepting card payments and unable to issue change. I therefore followed the advice given in C above. Whilst on board the train, a ticket inspector came round and when I explained the situation proceeded to issue a penalty notice for £20 plus the full cost of a ticket. He explained I could appeal to the address on the back of the penalty notice. I appealed and explained the situation (without informing the ticketing manager) and won my appeal. I was refunded the entire cost of the ticket, the penalty fare and given an additional amount in compensation.

 

So, based on my own experience, if you are telling the fuul truth about what happened believe you have a valid defence.

[45002]

I've just rang the department to try and get the full facts and the lady has said they want to know why i was using my pass from Handforth on the day in question when it only applies from Cheadle Hulme. She says at this stage i just need to provide an explanation about the events that day.

 

I think the problem is you got on the train and showed your pass which in the eyes of the guard was not valid and he jump to the conclusions you where trying to pull a fast one,im not saying you was,but that was what the guard was thinking and used his entitlement to confiscate your pass.

 

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/greater_manchester/tickets/gmpte/

 

This is why the lady asked you why where you using a pass not valid from that station.

 

Sounds like the guard got out of bed the wrong side and was been too heavy handed as well.

 

Next time 1st ask for a single from Handforth to Cheadle Hulme from the guard if the BO is shut,pay for it then show the guard your season ticket.

 

Hope you can understand me and you get this problem sorted.

Edited January 22, 2011 by 45002