Help on PCN from Bexley council - poor quality images!

[Petejc21]

Hi,

This morning I returned from work to find a PCN from Bexley council on my doormat. It was a code 47J Stopped on a restricted bus stop. I do not remember being in Bexley and doing this, nor does my wife. This happened on 11th sept 2010. Furthermore the camera evidence they have submitted shows very poor images (it was at night). You can barely see the registration plate, let alone what it says!

 

Pictures of the PCN pages inc. photos are below, courtesy of Starfarer.

 

Do you think there are any grounds for appeal? The fine was for £100 (£50 if paid within 21 days), is this also not a little excessive for stopping at a bus stop for a few seconds?

 

Thanks!

Pete

Edited September 25, 2010 by Petejc21

[starfarer]

Wait out until experienced member replies.

 

As I live close to Bexley, I've made few observations and enquiries on their parking regulations. Unlike other boroughs, Bexley have INSTANT policy on almost every contravention ie issue PCN without making any observation to determine the exemptions. On Bus stops, they record with Gestapo car and once the wheels stopped moving, you're done. Most London Borough I believe gives you 2 Minutes before PCN. Though it was before NSL came in on earlier this year.

 

In most places where Bexley enforce Bus stop restrictions, Camera Enforcement signs are missing, normally they carry the sign with them but CEO rarely bother to come out of the car and put on. In a rare cases where CEO actually put the sign, it's always the Lamp post just before Bus stops. Even if signs are permanently there, most I've seen were far too close to stops. It's another matter and I don't know whether enforcement SIGNS are needed and in what distance. BTW, these are at remote places outside of CPZ.

 

Also have a look whether the Bus stop actually is NO STOPPING. On NO WAITING, I think there are exemptions and rep can be based on the ground.

 

BTW can you post name of street the stop is? If it's close to me, I can run down tomorrow and take pics for you and others can advice on the faults.

Edited September 25, 2010 by starfarer

[Petejc21]

Hi,

Thankyou very much for your help! The street was Bellegrove Road, Welling. Time was 20:03 (do buses operate at that time on a saturday?), 11th sept. If you have an email address I can send you some pics, or the link to this on another forums?

[starfarer]

Exact location??? Quite few on that road. It's a main road within CPZ and probably are well marked + signed.

[starfarer]

Photos of OP:

 

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[green_and_mean]

Hi,

Time was 20:03 (do buses operate at that time on a saturday?)

 

Very few buses in London stop before 8pm and Buses run down Bellgrove road 24 hours a day.

[starfarer]

Well, how about the pictures of vehicle in contravention?

 

On that road there are around 4/5 bus stops. All are well marked, not sure about signs but all of them are At all times NO stopping in texts. If I know exact location, I can go and have a look whether the sign actually is for No stopping too.

 

I wonder why the smart car is being used in that road where a CEO can manage?

 

More importantly:

I do not remember being in Bexley and doing this, nor does my wife

. Any chance it's a wrong VRM?

[Petejc21]

Yes, I think they have the wrong vrm, I think its something like GK04 FKH (same make and model of my car), or GR04 FKM (a ford fiesta I think), GR04 FHM again a fiesta. In fact there are lots of variations of the vrm that it could be, youcant identify it enough to be 100% sure, can you?

 

I wouldn't know exact location, the PCN doesn't say and I'm pretty sure I wasn't even there!

 

Would they hold any other photos? Or just the 2 that they sent (above)?

 

How do you mean smart car and CEO??

Edited September 25, 2010 by Petejc21

[green_and_mean]

Write and ask for a clearer photo, they must have one or they would not know it was a skoda.

[Petejc21]

Well I'm assuming they've taken what hey think is my reg number from the photo and contacted the DVLA, who, with the reg number, would give them all the vehicle details.

[green_and_mean]

Well I'm assuming they've taken what hey think is my reg number from the photo and contacted the DVLA, who, with the reg number, would give them all the vehicle details.

 

You assume wrong.

[Petejc21]

You assume wrong.

 

How so?

[green_and_mean]

The Council send off the vehicle details and the DVLA supply the keepers details, the details on the PCN are completed before the DVLA is contacted not after all they do is indicate who its sent to.

[TheBogsDollocks]

The Council send off the vehicle details and the DVLA supply the keepers details, the details on the PCN are completed before the DVLA is contacted not after all they do is indicate who its sent to.

 

VQ5's in my experience also provide vehicle details such as make and colour. PCN processing systems can then highlight any anomalies between what the CEO/CCTV operator recorded and what DVLA have recorded.

 

Postal PCN's that I'm familiar with are only generated following DVLA having provided the VQ5

[starfarer]

Write and ask for a clearer photo, they must have one or they would not know it was a skoda.

 

1) What if those are the only pictures they got? or if VRM not clearer on all pictures they have?

 

For this PCN, smart car CCTV was used.If to believe OP then CEO made error in recording registration number.Probable they manually record details rather than taking off the photos.All photos are of above quality wherein VRM can hardly be identify, so council will rely on CEO's handbook. This will be against OP's claim vs CEO's account. OR no contest in favor of OP?

 

2) Do they record videos as well and can be produced as an evidence?

 

Also can be for Q1 above. As I said, Bexley issue instant PCN's on most contraventions. From above 2 photos, it shows Vehicle was at Bus stop but as both of them are of same time @ 20:03, it's hard to tell whether the vehicle is stopped (which is the contravention on PCN) unless 2 seconds elapsed time is good enough to prove.

Edited September 26, 2010 by starfarer

[green_and_mean]

VQ5's in my experience also provide vehicle details such as make and colour. PCN processing systems can then highlight any anomalies between what the CEO/CCTV operator recorded and what DVLA have recorded.

 

Postal PCN's that I'm familiar with are only generated following DVLA having provided the VQ5

 

The PCN is printed on day of notice but its created before the request is made to the DVLA if no PCN is created there are no grounds to request the details. If the VQ5 does not match the PCN it should not be sent out I have never heard of a Council manually changing PCNs to match the VQ5 and it would show on the case notes resulting in the PCN being cancelled at adjudication. If no PCNs are generated prior to the VQ5 how can a PCN number be allocated to each request for the details.

[green_and_mean]

Also can be for Q1 above. As I said, Bexley issue instant PCN's on most contraventions. From above 2 photos, it shows Vehicle was at Bus stop but as both of them are of same time @ 20:03, it's hard to tell whether the vehicle is stopped (which is the contravention on PCN) unless 2 seconds elapsed time is good enough to prove.

 

Do you not understand the concept behind CCTV, this is 2010 we now have cameras that take moving pictures.

[starfarer]

Do you not understand the concept behind CCTV, this is 2010 we now have cameras that take moving pictures.

 

My question was for recording, archiving and producing as an evidence. I'm aware fixed CCTV's record but here the pcn was issued from Smart car CCTV. Due to the portable equipments, I assume these CCTV's have limited capabilities compared to fixed.

[TheBogsDollocks]

The PCN is printed on day of notice but its created before the request is made to the DVLA if no PCN is created there are no grounds to request the details. If the VQ5 does not match the PCN it should not be sent out I have never heard of a Council manually changing PCNs to match the VQ5 and it would show on the case notes resulting in the PCN being cancelled at adjudication. If no PCNs are generated prior to the VQ5 how can a PCN number be allocated to each request for the details.

 

Operational guidance;

 

 

10.41

The information returned to a local authority in response to each request

will comprise:

vehicle registration mark (that is, number plate);

name and address of the registered keeper;

date for which the results are provided;

vehicle make, model and colour; and

other indicators that the vehicle has been scrapped, stolen, etc (only via the

electronic route).

 

10.42

The information from DVLA should be cross-referenced with the details recorded

by the CEO to ensure that the make, model and colour matches that recorded at

the roadside. The authority should weed out any recording or keying errors to

avoid generating an incorrect NtO.

 

In answer to your last point I believe it depends on the PCN processing software used.

[green_and_mean]

In answer to your last point I believe it depends on the PCN processing software used.

 

Not at all, a PCN has to be issued for the details to be obtained if for no other reason than to cover the DPA. Each request for keeper details must include the unique PCN number if it didn't the LA would find it impossible to match the requests for keeper details and the original contraventions.

[Petejc21]

When I make my formal representations, how many of the boxes can I tick? It says that I can only tick one of the form above, but I've been lead to believe I can tick as many as I like? Are they not mis-leading by saying only one?

[Petejc21]

Quick update... my wife was in the area for a funeral yesterday and had a look at the bus stop where the cctv images for the PCN were taken. She said it is the bus stop right outside Macdonals along Bellegrove Road, just past the Lloyds bank. She said she couldnt see any fixed signs that warn of fines for stopping. .

 

Just before the bus stop there are dotted white lines for a long parking bay with restricted times (No waiting mon-sat 9am-5.30pm) and a camera sign next to this. I dont think these are for the bus stop too though, just the parking bay.

[starfarer]

OP requested for actual Bus Stop marks and signs:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2010 by starfarer

[starfarer]

 

 

 

 

GPS Location : 51º27.780'N 0º6.268'E

Edited October 5, 2010 by starfarer

[Petejc21]

Thats the one. Thanks for photos Starfarer. Yes, you see it says "No Stopping Except for Local Buses" at the far end of the bus stop (where the bus timetable is displayed) but at the near end it has the Controlled Zone sign with times 9am-5.30pm Mon-Sat, does that mean you can stop to drop off/pick up at that this section of the bus stop outside of those restricted times? The incidient occured on Sat at 20:03.