The morals & ethics of being in debt

[luckysandpiper]

I have been a CAG-er for some 9 months now and I am still finding new things on this site on every visit. Today I came across a thread which discussed the difference between 'debt evasion' and 'debt avoidance' and set out the site's position - regretably, I cannot locate it again.

However, and for what it is worth to anyone, I set out herewith my own views on the subject.

At the end of 2007 I defaulted on three credit card agreements as a result of a financial crisis caused, in part, by the actions of one of the big 'financial institutions'. As a layman, my immediate reaction was to negotiate with these institutions amid all their threats, and start to repay the monies owed.

During 2009, I joined this forum and became aware that, whilst I had assumed that these big institutions were 'whiter than white' and adhered rigidly to the law, and the rules and regulations imposed by the licences under which they operated, this was not actually the case, and so, I started to challenge these institutions.

When I defaulted on my side of the contracts for these cards, my penalty was to have three defaults listed with all main credit reference agencies which will remain there for a further 5 years and make it difficult, if not impossible, for me to get any further credit of any sort.

Since I am now beginning to discover that these institutions may have 'defaulted' on their side of these agreements RIGHT FROM THE START, I consider that avoiding payment of these debts by legal means is a fair penalty to impose on the institutions concerned in recognition of their defaults.

Should thee organisations be able to prove that they complied fully with the law, rules and regulations, I will re-instate my payments to them and accept my liability. However, the fact that, in two cases at least, the debts have been passed out to DCA's separate from the Original Creditor, reinforces my belief that all is not well on the other side.

 

LSP

[themagician]

common peeps i dont feel sorry for any debt owed to banks !

how much do they owe us the tax payer???? billions.

was alright when times were good and when they got into trouble we the tax payer bailed them out.

WHOS BAILING YOU OUT ???? bet it aint the bank!!

[cerberusalert]

I'm afraid banks want their cake and to eat it at the same time. A prime example, today I had nearly £3K paid into my a/c via my Service Card 250, this was a refund of a purchase I made & had to be returned because of an EU recall of contaminated leather furniture. When I paid originally by DD card the monies were debited immediately from my a/c, but now it's been refunded I now have to wait 3 to 5 days for it to be credited to my a/c. So who's getting the benefit of this money? Certainly not me for the next few days.

[luckysandpiper]

I'm afraid banks want their cake and to eat it at the same time. A prime example, today I had nearly £3K paid into my a/c via my Service Card 250, this was a refund of a purchase I made & had to be returned because of an EU recall of contaminated leather furniture. When I paid originally by DD card the monies were debited immediately from my a/c, but now it's been refunded I now have to wait 3 to 5 days for it to be credited to my a/c. So who's getting the benefit of this money? Certainly not me for the next few days.

 

Cerberusalert, may I ask you to take a look at my latest post on this thread and let me have your comments please?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/190492-1st-credit-finance-reigate-6.html

 

 

LSP

[luckysandpiper]

From what I read these days, the Courts now sort debtors into 'can't pays' and 'won't pays'. In effect this seems to mean that the only chance you have is to plead poverty, pay as little as possible, and hope that they will get tired of collecting such small amounts.The fact that the unscrupulous Finance Organisations cannot produce copies of agreements (because they were never created in the first place) seems to be irrelevant now. Successive Governments have made this possible by diluting the original provisions of CCA 1974 to such an extent that almost any document can be created as a 'true copy' and held up to enforce dodgy debts.Why have 'morals' now ? It's more like 'us & them' !!LSP

Edited June 4, 2011 by luckysandpiper
spelling error

[Alloyz1]

I agree with the true copy part entirely.

It now seems better if they actually produce the original agreement that can be proved to be not properly executed than have them produce a "true copy" and they conjour up anything they like!!

[sillygirl1]

Where do you get your info from that courts divide people into cant pay and won't pay? There is no concrete evidence of this.

 

Troll go back to your burrow.

[theghost]

TBH if I wasn't going to pay it would quite simply be because I couldn;t afford it or because I just didn't wnat to - I wouldn't kid myself it was because they couldn't produce somesort of paperwork - unless there really was confusion over figures owed or they had made a serious cock up.

 

At the end of the day I knew what I was doing when I took out the loan.

 

I have some sympathy with the banks in their collection ethods, only because a friendly approach wouldn't work. Its a bit like legislation - it can be harsh at times but you cannot always make exemptions for the goods guys.

[PGH7447]

I have some sympathy with the banks in their collection ethods, only because a friendly approach wouldn't work. Its a bit like legislation - it can be harsh at times but you cannot always make exemptions for the goods guys.

 

This is where you are so wrong, if these instituitions actually treated debtors with a bit of respect then 9 times out of 10 they would get their money back, maybe not at the rate they want but they would get it paid back, it is because they revert to threat and intimidation that people are now fighting back, so please dont come on here defending their methods, because their methods STINK

[theghost]

This is where you are so wrong, if these instituitions actually treated debtors with a bit of respect then 9 times out of 10 they would get their money back, maybe not at the rate they want but they would get it paid back, it is because they revert to threat and intimidation that people are now fighting back, so please dont come on here defending their methods, because their methods STINK

 

We will have to agree to disagree. The notion that a nice guy approach would be more effective that the aggresive approach for DCA is ridiculous. 9 times out of 10? As if.

If they played the nice guy there would be even more **** takers.

 

Having worked in law enforcement I have seen this first hand - large sectiions of the public cannot be told unless you take a firm hand with them.

 

 

Of course, I am not advocating harassment or unescessary aggresion.

[PGH7447]

Having worked in law enforcement I have seen this first hand - large sectiions of the public cannot be told unless you take a firm hand with them.

 

QUOTE]

 

what utter tripe, so your telling me that we, the Joe Public have to be treated with a firm hand or we take liberties, what planet are you living on DCA LALA Land,

[Cadbury1879]

Sorry "the ghost" working in law enforcement has obviously given you a warped sense of reality.

[theghost]

 

what utter tripe, so your telling me that we, the Joe Public have to be treated with a firm hand or we take liberties,

 

In many a case - yes.

 

With regards to DCA activities specifically - lets be honest - 'customers' are going to be very hositle from the start therefore a nice nice atitude probably won't get very far. The nice people will pay up whetehr they are treated good or bad, the ones that won't pay up are the ones that need to treated 'firmly'.

[theghost]

Sorry "the ghost" working in law enforcement has obviously given you a warped sense of reality.

 

Probably has to be honest, I preferred it when I was naive and living ignorantly

[Cadbury1879]

Pgh your right, theghost needs to spook off

[luckysandpiper]

Do keep in mind all of you self-righteous peeps, that when you default on a debt, a 'black mark' goes against your name with the three main credit reference agencies and stays there for 6 years - no trial, no defence, you are guity - period. Now try getting a new bank account, or getting the 'mark' removed.On the other hand, it may well be that your creditor failed to even set up a contract, let alone adhere to it - where is the punishment for that ?I know I racked up the debt, and I am 'paying for the sin' of being unable to pay it back (mainly due to the actions of an affiliated bank and its excessive charges) for 6 years. If the card issuer is unable to prove that a proper agreement was set up, why should there not be punishment for that default ?As for can't pays and won't pays, you should read around the Debt Collection Forum, SillyGirl1. I did not say it was set in concrete.LSP

[Alloyz1]

There is absolutely no justification for being under hand, intimidating and agressive with anyone, particular in the commercial and business environment. So please don't try to justify bullying Ghost, it doesn't wash here.

 

The tactics these DCA go to to recover their outlay, in any other area of business, would land you in jail.

 

The way they prey on the vulnerable and ill advised is disgusting. The threats and mis-information they purport to be the truth is beyond under hand.

 

I am glad the empowered are now able to help themselves and be able to distinguish what is truth and what is intimidation. No wonder people have such a distain for the DCA. Would you want to work things out with someone who blatently lies, intimidates and bullies you???

[cerberusalert]

This was a press release from the OFT in 2003;

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/news-and-updates/press/2003/pn_97-03

 

They warned 1st Credit in 2009;

 

http://www.debtmanagementtoday.co.uk/newsstory?id=547&type=newsfeature&title=debt_collector_warned_by_the_oft_has_its_licences_renewed

http://www.debtmanagementtoday.co.uk/newsstory?id=306

 

They warned Aktiv Kapital in 2011;

 

http://www.beatmydebt.com/news-articles/debt-collector-firm-warned-for-targeting-wrong-people.htm

 

IIRC there are 10 DCAs under warning this year. Nothing improves does it?

[RoyalIrish]

After being made redundant, I have been on the receiving end of all these 'Debt Collection' low lifes and their 'so called' firmness (otherwise called harrassment).

 

I didn't care for it very much, thank you!

 

Constant phone calls, threatograms, lies, cheating and even a fraudulent signature on a CCA.

 

They simply don't care about the 'can't pays' and in most cases they create the 'won't pays' themselves, purely from their dubious methods and business practices.

 

As far as I can see it, once you default on credit, for whatever reason, you are doomed unless you fight them with everything you got.

 

If the OC made a little bit more effort to sort the problems out instead of selling the accounts immediately to these bottom feeders then that would be a start.

 

It has already been established that many DCA's actually use the CRA's as a form of punishment to intimidate people and 'get their own back'.

 

It has happened to me.

 

Will it 'encourage' me to pay my debts to DCA's?

 

NO CHANCE!

 

PROUD TO BE A WON'T PAY!

 

PS I love the title 'Morals & Ethics'.

(there is none when you are in debt!)

[PGH7447]

With regards to DCA activities specifically - lets be honest - 'customers' are going to be very hositle from the start therefore a nice nice atitude probably won't get very far. The nice people will pay up whetehr they are treated good or bad, the ones that won't pay up are the ones that need to treated 'firmly'.

 

Er excuse me, the first time I was contacted by phone from one of these firms, and yes it was an inhouse DCA, the first words were pay up or else, I asked what do you mean or else, and he said you will soon see, and that was the start of constant phone calls threats and intimidation, I was not even given a chance to try to arrange anything, did I pay, you must be joking, I fought back, and guess what, they did not have a valid agreement so they have still got nothing, on the other hand if they had even tried to be understanding, they would have got paid, so who is the stupid cretin now, and this pattern was followed by all the other DCA's who come on the scene.

 

As for black marks on my credit report, who really gives a toss, I still managed to get a mortgage and credit

[Ilike banks]

But if you have to go to court and the judge asks if you have had the money, whats the reply meant to be? Tricky - if you say 'Yes', then I would imagine your done for..

[theghost]

To clarify - I haven't advocated use of any techniques that are illegal or borderline illegal. There are many things that DCAs can do that are probably 'firm' but well within the law.

 

PGH - you are an example but I don't believe you represent society as a whole. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Helios]

To clarify - I haven't advocated use of any techniques that are illegal or borderline illegal. There are many things that DCAs can do that are probably 'firm' but well within the law.

Yet to see any DCAs complying with the laws of this land, their methods include lies, cheating and harassment.

[PGH7447]

But if you have to go to court and the judge asks if you have had the money, whats the reply meant to be? Tricky - if you say 'Yes', then I would imagine your done for..

 

each situation is different, for example, if they have the correct paperwork and they can prove it then it is best to negotiate, all I am saying is that if they actually tried to understand that most people are cant pays and not wont pays and acted accordingley in their first contact then they might just be a bit supprised, but they dont, they tar all people as wont pays and react accordingley, this arguament has been gone over many times on this forum, but the creatures that work for DCA's are bonus driven so it is in their interest to try and collect as much as possible in the shortest time ergo they act on the very limit of the guidelines or else they blatently cross them in the hope that the person being chased does not know their rights.

[theghost]

Yet to see any DCAs complying with the laws of this land, their methods include lies, cheating and harassment.

If you only focus on places like CAG which tend to bring out the worst cases then you have a blinkered view. I would imagine DCAs combined process tens of millions of non payments each year.