Thrown Off Of A Train

[Mossycat]

Brief scenario

 

16 year old buys a return ticket, at the time of purchase he was on the train and had his bike with him. Outward journey no problem.

 

On the return part he was told to get off the train as it they did not allow bikes??? (The train was virtually empty)

 

Having discussed this incident with a less than helpful customer services they state that at the time of buying the original ticket he should have been told to buy a bike reservation, he wasn't, if he had have been told that he would have.

 

My initial thoughts are it's either negligence or breach of contract by the rail company, but before I start making waves I'd appreciate some input/advice.

 

Mossy

[dx100uk]

reclaim the unused portion of the ticket as well as writing a letter of complaint.

 

dx

[Signaller]

Hi,

I'm an ex passenger guard and although I've experienced a similar situation as yours, I can honestly say I've never refused anyone with a bike.You are quite right to complain about your treatment.You need to write to the train operating company concerned.It would help if you still had the ticket, although it isn't essential.If the train was full to bursting, then the guard could politely ask you to wait for the next train, although if it was the last train of the day he/she should accomodate you. In your situation, you cannot be refused passage on a train if you have a bike with you.Customer services are rarely much use if you phone them, as they usually read from a pr-prepared script.Contact them again in writing. Let me know how you get on.

Regards.

[Mossycat]

Hi,

I'm an ex passenger guard and although I've experienced a similar situation as yours, I can honestly say I've never refused anyone with a bike.You are quite right to complain about your treatment.You need to write to the train operating company concerned.It would help if you still had the ticket, although it isn't essential.If the train was full to bursting, then the guard could politely ask you to wait for the next train, although if it was the last train of the day he/she should accomodate you. In your situation, you cannot be refused passage on a train if you have a bike with you.Customer services are rarely much use if you phone them, as they usually read from a pr-prepared script.Contact them again in writing. Let me know how you get on.

Regards.

 

Hi Signaller

 

Thanks for your reply, I still have the ticket and I've written to them as you suggest.

 

I'll let you know what they say

 

Cheers

 

Mossy

[Old-CodJA]

Hi,

I'm an ex passenger guard and although I've experienced a similar situation as yours, I can honestly say I've never refused anyone with a bike.You are quite right to complain about your treatment.You need to write to the train operating company concerned.It would help if you still had the ticket, although it isn't essential.If the train was full to bursting, then the guard could politely ask you to wait for the next train, although if it was the last train of the day he/she should accomodate you. In your situation, you cannot be refused passage on a train if you have a bike with you.Customer services are rarely much use if you phone them, as they usually read from a pr-prepared script.Contact them again in writing. Let me know how you get on.

Regards.

 

Whilst I sympathise with the difficulty encountered by the 16 year-old, this post simply illustrates the lack of consistency in knowledge and application that often results in confusion and conflict.

 

It is always advisable to make a reservation where possible. Although cycling & rail travel are to be encouraged, it must be borne in mind that there isn't a general right to put a cycle on every train.

 

Yes you can be refused access to a train with a bicycle and although it will always be treated as a sympathetic request, it actually doesn't matter if it is the last train of the day.

 

On some services cycles are specifically barred and on some an essential reservation ( free or charged ) may apply.

 

The cycle is conveyed free of charge where permitted in accordance with the National Conditions of Carriage as an 'accompanied article'.

 

Where in the opinion of the Guard or Train Manager there is insufficient space or, the cycle could pose an impediment to the safety and / or comfort of other travellers, then the cycle can be refused.

 

When it is conveyed, it must be properly labelled with owner's journey details and destination.

 

Having said that, it is worth bearing in mind that the rail companies do have a policy of encouraging cycling and trains as environmentally friendly although the individual rail operators all have their own specific policy. You don't state where this happened. if you post which company or route this occurred on I can be more specific.

 

hope that helps.

Edited December 1, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[RPI]

It is different on which ever operator you use, some TOC's (crosscountry for e.g.) require a reservation, FGW require you to reserve on HST services but not on local services and like OC says, there is no committment by any TOC to carry cycles.

 

Could you be more specific with the journey that was made?

 

cheers

[noomill060]

In my day, bikes went free, in the guard's van-here:

 

YouTube - I should have known better

 

Mind you, this was when trains still had guards vans and an engine at the front. Trains these days are little more than trams with delusions of grandure

[Old-CodJA]

In my day, bikes went free, in the guard's van-here:

 

YouTube - I should have known better

 

Mind you, this was when trains still had guards vans and an engine at the front. Trains these days are little more than trams with delusions of grandure

 

 

Yes, I share a nostalgic view of railways too, but now we have to recognise the reality of today's railway.

 

That means that on commuter routes, in general, trains are something like twice as fast, twice as frequent and three times more crowded, not to mention more expensive and despite all that, they are still nowhere near acceptable for many people

[andydd]

Yes, I share a nostalgic view of railways too, but now we have to recognise the reality of today's railway.

 

That means that on commuter routes, in general, trains are something like twice as fast, twice as frequent and three times more crowded, not to mention more expensive and despite all that, they are still nowhere near acceptable for many people

 

Not sure about the twice as fast bit though, most commuter routes to London for example are no faster, my 2 local lines, C2C and NXEA still take about the same time as they did 50 years ago, in fact as they add more stops and more trains stopping at them, Stratford and West Ham for example, the journeys get longer. The TOC's also have one eye on the punctuality tables and many argue that some extra redundant time has been added to the timetable to make the figures look better.

 

On the bike front, my 2 lines only allow fold up bikes at peak times although I have noticed bikes that are full size in every way but have a simplke bracket in the middle, meaning they could in theory be partially folded, I myself have contemplated building a decent bike and simply cutting and welding a bracket in (with no intention of ever actually folding the bike).

 

Andy

[Old-CodJA]

Not sure about the twice as fast bit though, most commuter routes to London for example are no faster, my 2 local lines, C2C and NXEA still take about the same time as they did 50 years ago, in fact as they add more stops and more trains stopping at them, Stratford and West Ham for example, the journeys get longer. The TOC's also have one eye on the punctuality tables and many argue that some extra redundant time has been added to the timetable to make the figures look better.

 

Yes, you're right about the historic short run commuter routes, they are no quicker and some may even be slower in fact, but the commuter area in relation to London has widened immensely in the last 50 years. That was a generalisation too far and it would probably be fairer to say some routes see trains that travel twice as quickly for long distance commuters.

 

50 years ago people wouldn't have considered commuting in numbers to London from say Bath, Peterborough & Grantham etc, but today a great many do.

 

Although it is desireable to promote cycling as an environmentally friendly mode of transport in the cities, the numbers of people that ignore the rules and try to push full size, unlabelled cycles into crowded trains makes this a real problem on some routes.

 

With lock-up cycle racks at so many stations I can never understand why the committed cyclist, who is also a commuter, doesn't have two bikes. One at each end of the journey and I think that many station management teams could do a great deal to promote this by looking at ways of providing greater facility for storage in order to encourage the idea.

[noomill060]

Either that or couple a small goods van to the train for the transport of passenger's bikes.

[Mossycat]

OK I'm possibly missing something here, but, if you purchase a return ticket on board a train (and you are stood holding your bike at the time of the purchase), then that would suggest to me that you have a contract for travel. If there was any restrictions or possibility that return travel would be denied then the seller has a duty to inform the purchaser of the possible restrictions at the time, failure to do so could be classed as negligence.

 

This wasn't a one-off trip, its a journey they have taken on a regular basis for a number of months and have never had a problem until last Saturday.

 

It's currently with customer services of the train company involved, when I have their reply I'll post back.

 

Mossy

[noomill060]

When I was a spiky haired trainee punk rocker in the late 70's, BR used to promote free carriage for bikes.(limited storage facilities on Western Region HSTs where there wasnt/isnt a traditional guards compartment)

 

There was even a club you could join- so hip it was promoted by Keith Chegwin!

 

Edited December 2, 2009 by noomill060

[Old-CodJA]

OK I'm possibly missing something here, but, if you purchase a return ticket on board a train (and you are stood holding your bike at the time of the purchase), then that would suggest to me that you have a contract for travel. If there was any restrictions or possibility that return travel would be denied then the seller has a duty to inform the purchaser of the possible restrictions at the time, failure to do so could be classed as negligence. Mossy

 

No, all rail tickets are sold subject to the National Conditions of Carriage.

 

At the time of purchase there wasn't a problem with conveying the cycle on that train (probably because it wasn't busy and cycles are permitted on that service) so the guard/train manager/inspector sold the ticket and turned a 'blind eye' to the very minor transgression in that the cycle wasn't labelled (as most usually would.)

 

On the return journey, the onus of responsibility is on the traveller to check that a cycle can be conveyed on the chosen train by checking with the guard / train manager or any notices at booking office / information point etc before boarding.

 

If in the opinion of the person in charge of the train the cycle was likely to cause a problem, that person has the authority to refuse or, remove the cycle.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[Old-CodJA]

Either that or couple a small goods van to the train for the transport of passenger's bikes.

 

Even if there was a will to do something like that and we could easily overcome the impracticalities of hanging them on to modern trains, loading it and shunting at termini would add significant delay to operational & journey times.

 

Who is going to bear the cost to convey a cycle free of charge??? It isnt practical.

 

Furthermore, the 'Goods Van' doesn't exist any more.

[noomill060]

They could hire them from preserved lines....

[andydd]

When I was a spiky haired trainee punk rocker in the late 70's, BR used to promote free carriage for bikes.(limited storage facilities on Western Region HSTs where there wasnt/isnt a traditional guards compartment)

 

There was even a club you could join- so hip it was promoted by Keith Chegwin!

 

 

Ha..doesn't cheggers look young

[speedfreek]

No help to the OP but I have a seen a trick to get past this issue

 

Carry the bike on disguised as luggage

 

Saw it on a Mountain Bike Video where they were highlighting this issue and basically packaged their bikes in cardboard and took them on

 

The same principle would work with a large (very large) collapsible bag with handles

[Old-CodJA]

Sorry Speedfreek,

 

I hate to pour cold water on your idea, but large items of luggage are dealt with under exactly the same conditions. Please see Condition 48, if in the opinion of the member of stff controlling the train, there isn't enough room for it ANY item of luggage may be refused.

 

If in the first place the staff determine that there isn't room for your cycle, packing it in a box is not going to alter that.

 

NATIONAL RAILWAYS - CONDITIONS OF CARRIAGE FOR LUGGAGE, ARTICLES, ANIMALS AND CYCLES

 

46. Accompanied luggage, articles and animals

You may take small items of luggage, small articles and some animals with you in passenger accommodation without charge subject to the terms, conditions and restrictions set out in Appendix B. You must not place luggage or other articles on seats required for passengers. Animals are not allowed on seats in any circumstances.

 

47. Large items of luggage and large articles

Large items of luggage and large articles may be conveyed in a luggage van if one is available. You may have to pay a fee for this, but it will not be more than half the adult fare for your journey. Luggage and articles conveyed in a luggage van must be clearly labelled

with your name, address and destination station and will not be released by staff until you have proved ownership. The terms, conditions and restrictions which apply to luggage and articles conveyed in luggage vans are set out in Appendix B.

 

48. Cycles

Except for a few routes, the Train Companies allow cycles to be conveyed by train. However, restrictions may apply at particular times of day and/or days of the week. Any restrictions will be set out in the notices and publications of each Train Company. A charge may be made for conveying a cycle and a reservation may be required.

 

49. Restrictions

Any Train Company may (notwithstanding the terms set out in Conditions 46 to 48 and Appendix B) refuse to accept an item of luggage, an article, an animal or a cycle if, in the opinion of its staff:

(a) it may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or it may cause damage to property;

(b) there is not enough room for it;

© the loading or unloading may cause delay to trains; or

(d) it is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner.

 

Any Train Company’s staff may refuse to accept an item of luggage, an article, an animal or a cycle even if it has been conveyed by train in the past. This Condition applies from the start of your journey and also if you need to change trains. Other terms, conditions and

restrictions are set out in Appendix B.

 

50. A Train Company’s liabilities

A Train Company will only be liable for any loss or damage to luggage, articles, animals or cycles in its trains or on its premises if the loss or damage was caused by the negligent or wilful acts or omissions of its, or a Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents. A Train Company’s liability in respect of any item will not exceed the value of that item or £1,000, whichever is the lower.

 

51. Your responsibilities

You should take care of any item of luggage or article, animal or cycle that you take in passenger accommodation. You may be liable for any injury, damage, or loss if you do not take reasonable care.

SECTION III

[Mr. Kipling]

Yes, I share a nostalgic view of railways too, but now we have to recognise the reality of today's railway.

 

That means that on commuter routes, in general, trains are something like twice as fast, twice as frequent and three times more crowded, not to mention more expensive and despite all that, they are still nowhere near acceptable for many people

 

Heh if I had my way it would still be 1975... Proper trains (ie loco hauled and painted blue) on long haul routes, the old pink pasteboard tickets, semaphore signals, level crossings with proper gates, proper freight trains, black grey and white painted buildings, those orange curtains in train windows (remember them?) Restaurant cars, comfy seats with deep cushions and wood panelling in a compartment, Interesting stuff to see out of the windows... The list goes on. I'll take my nostalgic glasses off now

 

Nowadays the TOCs seem to hate the thought of a non-passenger even looking at a train