£5000 Cashback deal

[Mattyg2004]

Hello Folks

 

1st post so big hello,

 

Last sept (2008) I set up my own business and needed 11 mobile phones. I approached a friend who had his own mobile phone business and was just opening his first shop.

 

The deal he came back with was an orange 24 month month contract.

 

Ranging in cost for the same deal. depending on how much cashback.

 

I finally went for a 24 month contract costing £350 +VAT per month

With £2300+Vat cashback due month 3 and £2100+vat cashback due month 13.

 

I chose that one because as a new startup the cashback would clear some startup fees.

 

I submitted my first invoice in month 3 (end dec08) eventually he turned up with £2000 cash to my house (we live close by) and said he would have the rest next week.

 

Anyway this "next week" never arrived and dispite several letters and an LBA and since A CCJ against him still no joy. he has now filed papers with the court to have the judgment set aside. Claiming he doesnt actually owe me any money. Although he has paid off £2000.

 

I'm now worried that even if I do win this little war I'm going to have to go through it all agin at the end of Oct 09.

 

He now has to prove he doesnt owe me this money(Not sure how he is supposed to do this)

 

His company doesn't deal directly with Orange instead goes through a big Buyer called Midland.

 

Does anyone have any information/Ideas what I should do. What info I should get.. Who can I speak to at Midland or orange or even Ofcom.

 

He still owes me a lot of money. Money which my new start business needs.

He has had my money and spent it (which is damn annoying)

 

Thanks for reading and any Ideas would be greatfully recieved

 

Matt

[buzby]

Midland won't be able to assist you - indeed they are not a party to your agreement which is between you and your supplier alone.

 

As you may know - Cashback is tainted as a marketing exercise as there has been so many failures, and it is just a step away from pyramid selling - the supplier needs the on going revenue from people signing up (and the commission this provides from the network) to fund the rebates further down the line.

 

When the networks claw back based on uncompleted contracts they lose out big time and the house of cards collapses.

 

What helps you is that he's already paid you, so has already admitted thew debt exists. If he's only querying the amount - then trying to get the judgement set-aside requires a damn good reason, and if it is because he hadn't botheres - you can ask the court to disallow his appeal. If he's asserting there was an error in serving the original action, this may be more difficult.

 

You can do something to pull the rug from under him, I'm sure there's an English Law equivalent, but in Scotland we can put forward an Incidental Application in order to rais this very issue - that his attempt to re-run the action is incompetent. This is heard before the main action, and can often stop it in its tracks. Which would be to your advantage.

[Mattyg2004]

Thanks Buzby.

 

I di wonder how he was going to dispute the debt as he had already paid £2000 off it.

 

Is there a way to go through orange and set up a new contract with them direct. and right off the old contract. leaving orange to claim back from teh dealer, the already paid commision.

 

Probably not

 

The other thing that is bothering me is that in Oct the 2nd installment will be due £2100+vat. Am I going to have to go through all this or could the judge rule on both of these even though the 2nd one isnt due yet. Not so much that he must pay now rather that the actual monies is due.

 

 

Again Thanks

Matt

[buzby]

Although the firm is an agent of the network, you won't be able to get them to take any action in what is really a dispute between you and the dealer. They didn't authorise or condone the Cashback scheme, and it was funded by the dealer (incorrectly) assessing his future profit based on placing business through the network, and arranging to pay a percentage of this back to you. This has his decision, not theirs.

 

The onlt time they make a variation is when a customer has been cheated out of the cashback, they will allow the user to drop the contract down to the lowest level tariff. This isn;t the same as paying you the equivalent, but at least the onerous repayment is reduced since there is no compensatory cashback. Also, the minutes/texts bundle drops too.

 

What usually happens is the dealer declares the business is insolvent and closes, leaving everyone high and dry.

[Mattyg2004]

I believe i was his biggest customer so at least that may protect others from him in the future.

 

I have posted in http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed/211765-cancel-your-orange-contract.html

 

Would be nice to find another way. I have no problems with orange I have been a contract and PAYG customer since 1994

 

Its just this dealer has done the dirty and really needs to be stoped its a lot of money for a new small business

 

Thanks

Matt

[Mattyg2004]

I have just spent nearly 3 hours with another dealer going through as many scenarios as we can in order to either force the dealer to pay up or get out of my contract.

 

During the 3 hrs we managed to find that I never sent a proper purchase order outlining what i was expecting what phones I was getting. What talk plan i was on what bundles i needed. what costs were involved and anything to do with the cashback.

 

All I sent was an email attachment on a letterhead say please supply 11 phones as discussed.

This obviously wasnt signed.

 

I have also not received my contract from the dealer.

I have tried to get a copy of these from the dealer to no avail.

 

I have been told that due to the lack of proper purchase order that gives me grounds to cancel the contract and orange will claw back all commision paid due to the dealer

 

Any more Ideas

Matt

[buzby]

I just don't see that working at all. A Purchase Order is there to facilitate the customer (purchaser) specify the items to be bought so that there is no confusion as to what is requred or what the agreed price is. It also gives the vendor (retailer) the right to bill for the services as the PO is a signed commitment to purchase.

 

The troube is, if you do not operate a PO scheme, and did not issue a PO, the whole point of a PO is negated. A firm can supp;y you with good whether you give them a PO or not, and they're not magically prohibited from supplying you simply because you didn't give them a PO.

 

I would have thought for a business contract the network WOULD have provided a written contract, but if you ask them they will probably supply a copy, again no reason for a contract termination. Your complaint is with the dealer not providing you with the promised cashack - the network is still not party to this agreement, so they would pursue you to complete your obligation under contract. Just vecause the cashback deal didn't work out, it is THAT agreement that fails, not the comms contract.

[Mattyg2004]

AAhh

 

I was led to believe that as part of being given the contract I must have provided a proper purchase order as orange wouldnt accept the business contract without it.

 

I did issue a PO but It doesnt appear to have all the necessary information that is required by orange so the dealer has not done his due diligence.

 

I know i'm probably clutching at straws.

 

On another point it does also look like Im not on the tariff I was meant to be on.I told the dealer what I needed and it looks like I am very much over subscribed(for want of a better word)

I have bundles added that I dont need nor use.

 

Matt

[Mattyg2004]

Ok to add a little more. I have found an email stating the offer from my dealer.

To which i agreed however as my accountant has pointed out Im actually being charged about £180 per year more than i agreed. I thought the overspend was due to excessive/non inclusive call charges Etc. but after going through my bills with another dealer. it looks like i have an extra contract phone costing £30 PM more that should have been a sharer.

 

Matt

[buzby]

Orange may have asked their dealer to show their client's PO to process the connection (to cut down on fraud) = but if you DID provide a PO, then wouldn;t this have stated the handsets and tariff you expected to be connected to. If they didn;t or there was an error, you could use the PO (you copy of it) to connect you to what you expected. It's also worth remembering that the bigger the tariff you connect to, the greater the commission the dealer gets!

[pippadeee]

I think its safe to say you can probably kiss goodbye to that additional money, and the dealer's not going to provide any copy of the contract if he knows its going to incriminate him is he.

 

The moral of the tale is don't deal with third party dealers, but if you feel you must then make sure you have any offer and agreement in writing and kept very safely stored. The networks predominantly take dealers' at face value or or on trust ie they don't themselves generally ask for copies of any signed paperwork and I do find this beyond belief. So many times over the years I've come across scenarios such as yours. Another common one is when a customer comes to the end of their contract, makes plans to move to another network or renew with their current one and discovers that they can't because they still have a year or whatever) of their contract to go - they usually had moved up a tariff, or added an additional handset later into their contract or upgraded a handset and unbeknown to them the dealer on the sly extended their contract by another year or so at the same time too ... because they get big commssions for it, especially where amending the main tariffs are concerned if they dodgily put it through in a certain way so that they are paid the commission they would do had it been a ew customer new tariff situation.

[Mattyg2004]

Hello all,

 

This is linked to

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed/211564-5000-cashback-deal.html

 

But maybe useful for someone else.

 

I'm putting my bundle together and i am including an application for a hearing that the defendant has written a statement on. admitting that the contract was verbal and no contract stating the actual amount owed exists.

 

However in his new statement he now says that it clearly states on my contract the amount he alleges.

 

He hasnt included a contract he has included a Customer information form.

 

With the amount of cashback clearly written in the middle (he has obviously written that at a later date)

 

Now i want to include the hearing application but i dont want to state why yet!

 

Can i do that or do I have to state why it is included in the bundle??

[buzby]

If you plan to rely on it, you'll have to stipulate your intention to use it, but NOT the reason why.

[Mattyg2004]

Thanks Buzby (Again)

 

There are so many holes in his statement it funny.

 

Holes which his own evidence shows.

 

I doubt he'll even turn up in Jan for the hearing. His statement and evidence is over 6 pages mine is over 100.

 

If he goes to court I will ask the judge to make sure he swears an oath.

[buzby]

No - dont do that - let the Jusge run the show. If he doesn't show up - even though you're revved up, remember to ask the judge for your costs and expenses, and a month later you can arrange for formal recovery.... BUT ake sure he has assets, because without these you'll simply be paying the legal process, and you cannot get a Garnishee order on an overdraft or bank account with a debit balance!

[Mattyg2004]

Ive sued for £645 with costs thats now at £860 The defendant has paid 2 lots of £75 to have hearings that he didnt show for.

 

Before the judge would let him have another hearing he had to pay £860 into court.

 

So if I win I WILL get paid the £860

 

The funny thing is he now owes me for this years cashback which is £2100+Vat So if i win Ill be walking down the same road again. Not that i will see it but for £70 its worth winding him up again.

 

And as you say I will let the judge run it. It is his court after all.

 

Cheers

[Mattyg2004]

Update:

 

Had a funny morning.

 

Walked into the court waiting room to be met by not one but 3 people for the defendant

 

Him, his business partner and the LAWYER.

 

Went into court where the lawyer then tried to tell the Judge that they hadnt recieved my trial bundle.. Hang on, I didnt recieve theirs and had to pick it up myself from court. the sneaky beggars I had hand delivered it.

Which the judge then said good enough for him its been delivered but he would copy the documents and give them some time to have a look through.

 

 

After the three amigo's had read through my bundle the lawyer asked for a chat and offered to settle for the full amount due now. But that was in full and was to include the next years payment which is overdue.

 

As I Know I wouldnt get that next amount of monies owed as they had now set up another LTD i thought the best option would be to settle.

 

So back into court we go where the Lawyer announces that we have had a chat and settled.

 

Upon leaving I asked the Judge when i would recieve notice I meant MY CHEQUE but he said a letter would be out shortly.

 

He then offered that i had made the sensible choice but had I gone through he would have more than likely sided with me and made a judgment on the next installment.

 

 

Oh well like i said previous I would never have seen that next amount and I got what i sued for so all is ok.

 

 

Plus Orange have ok'd me to cancel my contract and they will claw back all his commision as he has mis-sold my contract.

 

Oops forgot to tell that to the defendant. Well he has pi**ed me about for 18 months.

 

 

Cheers for the info folks Especially Buzby

Matt

Edited January 5, 2010 by Mattyg2004

[andypartridge1]

Reading through your full story Matt, i was getting more and more disappointed with what was happening to you as it was far worse than the £240 cashback from aboutcomms i am owed, but what a great ending Matt, well done , one in the eye for the toerag