25 Days Late,3.5 Kilos Of SAR Arrives With 1989 Agreement

[middenmess]

Hi noomill for previous detailed and informative post and yes I have been reading a number of your threads and I am having to retrain my brain cells to try and absorb all the info contained therein!

 

~

 

Hi Slick--didn't really think that I could put that in and they might have thought less of the severity of their situation if I had left in in situ.

 

~

 

I'm hoping that this thread with noomill's input about the PPI will stir others into making claims based on this aspect of unenforceability through mis-selling.

[pompeyfaith]

subbing with interest

 

PF

[middenmess]

Letter requesting repayment of charges plus 8% interest for total of c.£600 within 14 days ignored so second letter sent off today with the addition of compound interest making the claim now £1600 plus...

 

'You have ignored my request to repay me the unlawful charges that you have added to the above account detailed in my letter to you of xx July and signed for by you on xx+1 July,2009.

 

In that letter-copied below to avoid any misunderstanding- I gave you the option to repay these charges plus simple interest at 8% for a total of just £6xx.00 within 14 days or if you decided to dispute the matter in Court,then I would be still be requesting repayment of said charges but would then be require compound interest at the same rate as you are presently charging me to be added on.

 

As you have not responded to my request or entered into any form of communication with me, the option of paying just the charges plus 8% simple interest has now expired and I must assume that you have decided that you are happy to contest the matter in open Court with the attendant publicity that such a case will generate,however if you would like to avoid the unnecessary and avoidable additional expenses of a legal action,then a cheque made payable to moi for the charges plus compound interest in the sum of £16xx.00, as per the attached schedule, will bring this matter to an end.

 

Should you once again ignore my requests,please be in no doubt whatsoever that I will commence proceedings against you and my claim will then also have the costs of going to court as well as the additional interest on the charges that are accruing on a daily basis.'

 

 

I will cc it to the CEO of HBOS if someone has that name and address please.

 

 

 

So that's account in dispute sent

Charges to be returned sent

and PPI yet to be sent.

What's the likely response from Halifax going to be?

 

 

Replies,if any,should produce some good reading material for the autumn.

[pompeyfaith]

Hiya,

 

Could not find an address but found this:

 

Halifax Bank of Scotland Andy Hornby, Chief Executive andyhornby@hbosplc.com http://www.hbosplc.com HBOS.L 5 Feb 2009

 

Regards

 

PF

[middenmess]

Hi Pompey--I think he's been binned and gone to Boots!

 

• 
  
• 
  Boots offers Hornby a way to mend bruised CV
   
   
  After HBOS crashed, Andy Hornby became a hate figure. Now he wants to rebuild his career and reputation back in retail.
   
  
• -----------------------------------------------------------
  

How many here would love to wipe that smile off his face?

[landy_alert]

Hi middenmess:)

 

Still subbing with interest and have pinched a few choice phrases from your letter to supplement the one I'm about to write to to Sainsbury's Bank if you don't mind!

 

I'm afraid I can't help you with the CEO's info, but if he's anything like the CEO of LTSB you will be lucky to get a reply - I recently emailed the Lloyds boss and got no acknowledgement at all..........I get the feeling these people don't like me:(

 

Landy x

[pompeyfaith]

Landy,

 

I had no response from David Anderson CEO Co-Op Bank, not that i care now as the last laugh is on me

 

PF

[middenmess]

'Still subbing with

interest and have pinched a few choice phrases from your letter to supplement the one I'm about to write to to Sainsbury's Bank if you don't mind!'

 

Hi Landy--my pleasure:)

[middenmess]

UPDATE

 

Request for repayment of late charges plus 8% simple interest within 14 days rec'd by Halifax on July 29th ---No response.

 

Request for repayment of late charges now with Compounded Interest as 14 day option had expired rec'd by Halifax on 18th August.

 

Request for copy of my CCA rec'd by Halifax on 16th July and ignored so 'account in dispute' letter rec'd by Halifax on 18th August...

 

But then on 20th August,the paperwork below was received ...

 

 

 

 

 

Continued on next post.

 

 

1.cover letter.Aug.09.pdf

7.Agreement1.pdf

8.Agreement2.pdf

9..Agreement3.pdf

10.Agreement4.pdf

[middenmess]

Continued from previous post... and more on following post..

11.Conditions1.pdf

12.Conditions2.pdf

13.Conditions3.pdf

14.Conditions4.pdf

15.Notice of change.pdf

Edited August 21, 2009 by middenmess
forgot to include 'continued'

[middenmess]

continued

 

They also sent me another copy of the 'Application Form/agreement that I have already posted in post #1 of this thread and I've extracted a couple of sections from that in the attachments.

 

So loads of this that and the other all mixed in there.

 

A few points I've picked up on..

 

Accompanying letter says...'a copy of your reconstituted version of your current terms and conditions...'

 

A] As I haven't made a reconstituted version of them how can they be sending me a copy of something that has never existed??--or am I just be pedantic over the use of the English language here?

 

B] 3.Other Financial Information.

3.1 That's gone over my head completley--anyone explain please?

 

Plus the rates quoted here are different from those on the copy of the application form--see extract or see post 1.

 

C] 3.3 The simple rates here seem to me to be at varience with what my actual interest rates are--I'm charged 23.29% simple = 25.95% APR for balance transfers and 23.29 simple =25.95% APR for purchases.

 

D] box for PPI is nothing like the 'Credit Care' at section 12 of the application form [see extract or see post 1.]

 

And there is no section with any explanation as to what the PPI entails or any terms or conditions relevant to it.

 

There's probably more but That will do to start with.

 

Any comments or opinions please as to what my next step should be?

 

Apologies for overlong post:)

 

E] 12.2--Is it just me but does this read as they have no need to inform you when they increase the rate of interest--it would seem to be badly worded or contructed.

5.extractC.pdf

3.extractA.pdf

[beachcomber60]

Fascinating thread, now subscribing with interest.

 

If I may pose a question to what Noomill060 posted earlier regarding PPI,

 

If an agreement is laid out as :-

 

A) Description of Goods/Services & Cash Price

 

B) Less Deposit

 

C) Amount of Credit for Goods/Services

 

D) Protected Payment Premiums

 

E) Total Amount of Credit

 

F) Monthly rate of interest (variable)

 

G) APR

 

H) Number of monthly payments

 

Would this render the agreement unenforceable because of the PPI element being classed as Credit.

 

Have huge issues with GE over mis selling PPI.

 

By no means trying to high jack, but really interested in the comments made & just thought I'd ask the above, thanks in advance.

 

Good luck.

 

Beachy

[middenmess]

Hi Beachy,

 

The questions that you are posing above appear to relate to a loan rather than a credit card but as far as I am aware the same PPI issue is relevant to both in that in adding PPI, the loan then becomes a multiple agreement and if not executed as such becomes unenforceable.[apart from the interest angle]

 

I'm a zilllion miles away from being au fait with all of this and am experiencing problems with Halifax just trying to get back my late charges from them before moving onto the PPI issues.

See my latest thread about this at..

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/217048-how-much-youre-aving.html

 

As regards your PPI problems with GE,I think that asking pompeyfaith to have a look would be your best option as he really does seem to have the knowledge and experience with this PPI and should be able to give you some good answers and direction.

 

As this whole PPI mis-selling is becoming more and more of an issue to many people it might be an idea if the site team could put up a step by step guide to it or perhaps a FAQ on it as it does appear to be a very complex area.

[vint1954]

continued

 

They also sent me another copy of the 'Application Form/agreement that I have already posted in post #1 of this thread and I've extracted a couple of sections from that in the attachments.

 

So loads of this that and the other all mixed in there.

 

A few points I've picked up on..

 

Accompanying letter says...'a copy of your reconstituted version of your current terms and conditions...'

 

A] As I haven't made a reconstituted version of them how can they be sending me a copy of something that has never existed??--or am I just be pedantic over the use of the English language here?

 

B] 3.Other Financial Information.

3.1 That's gone over my head completley--anyone explain please?

 

Plus the rates quoted here are different from those on the copy of the application form--see extract or see post 1.

 

C] 3.3 The simple rates here seem to me to be at varience with what my actual interest rates are--I'm charged 23.29% simple = 25.95% APR for balance transfers and 23.29 simple =25.95% APR for purchases.

 

D] box for PPI is nothing like the 'Credit Care' at section 12 of the application form [see extract or see post 1.]

 

And there is no section with any explanation as to what the PPI entails or any terms or conditions relevant to it.

 

There's probably more but That will do to start with.

 

Any comments or opinions please as to what my next step should be?

 

Apologies for overlong post:)

 

E] 12.2--Is it just me but does this read as they have no need to inform you when they increase the rate of interest--it would seem to be badly worded or contructed.

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

[middenmess]

Hi Vint

 

Until very recently, and in common with possibly millions of others, I had always believed [AKA been brainwashed] that banking and other financial institutions were pillars of our society whose purpose in our social structure was to keep us plebs on the path of righteousness and they would always have our interests at heart and would work industriously and honestly to deliver us from evil.

 

DOH!!

 

Following on from the heavily publicised demise of our banking industry over the past 2 years and the revealing of the their often atrocious and questionable business practices aligned with the ever increasing reach of the internet has encouraged many to question the legality of the financial agreements and resultant debt that the banks were always encouraging us to enter into, often with the lure of 'free' gifts or similar enticements.

 

We are now in a situation that as people have access to the Consumer Action Group and other similar forums and can share and receive experiences and advice,the plebs now have more information and are often more knowledgeable about the workings and implications of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act than the vast majority of those minions that are employed by the banks to deal with the ever increasing number of complaints concerning improperly executed credit agreements and the mis-selling of other financial products.

 

The banks response is to attempt to baffle us with quasi-legal jargon and bulldung coupled with thinly veiled threats of their power to destroy us financially.

 

This,together with their inherent relationship with those who run our judiciary has been more than enough, until recent times, to end disputes in the bank's favour but as there are now literally many thousands of people making claims against the banks the position has moved into one of a semi-stalemate in which the banks no longer can ride rough shod over claimants.

 

It is now a pantomime scenario with claims and disputes of 'Oh no you can't' from them and a resounding 'Oh yes we can!' from us.

[jdes26]

great thread

 

i cant wait too see what i get back from mbna

[middenmess]

great thread

 

i cant wait too see what i get back from mbna

 

More than likely it will be...

 

'quasi-legal jargon and bulldung coupled with thinly veiled threats of their power to destroy you financially.'

[tinkerbell20]

interesting

[jdes26]

they have already put a default ON MY CREDIT file whats the worst they can do know..... come round my house..... oh im shaking in my boots..the best thing would be to provide me with what i am legally entitled to a CCA and an SAR request which i have paibd for!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vint1954]

Hi Vint

 

Until very recently, and in common with possibly millions of others, I had always believed [AKA been brainwashed] that banking and other financial institutions were pillars of our society whose purpose in our social structure was to keep us plebs on the path of righteousness and they would always have our interests at heart and would work industriously and honestly to deliver us from evil.

 

They used to be, but all has now changed. Modern world I guess.

 

DOH!!

 

Following on from the heavily publicised demise of our banking industry over the past 2 years and the revealing of the their often atrocious and questionable business practices aligned with the ever increasing reach of the internet has encouraged many to question the legality of the financial agreements and resultant debt that the banks were always encouraging us to enter into, often with the lure of 'free' gifts or similar enticements.

 

True, but we had the chance to say no or not use it. It is when they refuse to help, that most kick back.

 

We are now in a situation that as people have access to the Consumer Action Group and other similar forums and can share and receive experiences and advice,the plebs now have more information and are often more knowledgeable about the workings and implications of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act than the vast majority of those minions that are employed by the banks to deal with the ever increasing number of complaints concerning improperly executed credit agreements and the mis-selling of other financial products.

 

The banks response is to attempt to baffle us with quasi-legal jargon and bulldung coupled with thinly veiled threats of their power to destroy us financially.

 

This,together with their inherent relationship with those who run our judiciary has been more than enough, until recent times, to end disputes in the bank's favour but as there are now literally many thousands of people making claims against the banks the position has moved into one of a semi-stalemate in which the banks no longer can ride rough shod over claimants.

 

Not sure that I agree with that. Judges are human too and some doubtlessly have at some point, similar problems. The main problem is some do have a lack of specialist knowledge.

 

It is now a pantomime scenario with claims and disputes of 'Oh no you can't' from them and a resounding 'Oh yes we can!' from us.

Vint

[jdes26]

the fact of the matter is times have changed and i for one was pushed in to a situation of getting divorced losing my house and paying for my kids and for that i am now in debt.... but i do love the FIGHTBACK!

[middenmess]

In response to my second letter putting the account into serious dispute as Halifax had only sent me a reconstituted version of the credit agreement,I received a letter today,copied below,which is a cut and paste from several of their templated responses as it starts off as 'Dear Mr.X' then moves to 'your client' then says 'while we try to locate---will not seek enforcement' and then ends with 'will continue..normal collections..'

 

 

 

 

 

My favourite two lines are...

 

'We are satisfied the terms and conditions of the agreement were on the reverse of the application form,therefore your client had sight of these details when you signed and accepted the terms'

[There's just nothing like that personal touch in a letter to make your customer feel valued]

 

and

 

'I hope this clarifies our posistion' [Yep,absolutely.You've made it as clear as mud]

 

 

 

So anyone want to translate their intentions into comprehensible English?

 

Are they 'not seeking to enforce' or will they 'continue with ..normal collections?'

[vint1954]

They would have to prove that the T&C's were on the reverse, by providing the origonal in court.

 

The regulations do define what is a copy and it can omit signatures and dates. This is due to the fact that documents used to be manually coppied, there being no photocopiers or digital archiving systems. This meant that a copy agreement had to be written out by hand or typed. Obviously you cannot sign and date such a copy. The fact remains that it has to be a true copy, coppied from the original agreement. If they had that, they would photocopy it, therefore their reconstruction is a pile of waste paper. QED.

[London000]

 

 

My favourite two lines are...

 

'We are satisfied the terms and conditions of the agreement were on the reverse of the application form,therefore your client had sight of these details when you signed and accepted the terms'

[There's just nothing like that personal touch in a letter to make your customer feel valued]

 

and

 

'I hope this clarifies our posistion' [Yep,absolutely.You've made it as clear as mud]

 

 

Are they 'not seeking to enforce' or will they 'continue with ..normal collections?'

 

HI there,

 

What a "photocopy" of my situation...They have a very good copier machine...to copy and paste letters over and over...

Sorry to parachute in but it makes me stick my tongue out when I see Halifax's ways....

Can they not bloody realise that they have gone to war with no bulets???

Are they for real???

I think that the more we reply the more they get what they want to keep track on us somehow...don't you???

Let's be honest people!!!!

STOP THE S...TING.

Can not wait to see HALIFAX in court.... I am catching their hands in my pocket stealing and they keep saying that they have done nothing wrong....and try to acuse you for having ....pockets....

WHAT A RUBISH....I AM JUST WONDERING how much are they letting it adding up??

So soooory to reply sooo ...long...but it makes me realy thinking of moving out for good....

DD

Edited September 15, 2009 by London000

[summerbreeze]

Hi MM

Which letter did you use that prompted the last response?

thanks

SB