Zubo v Yorkshire Bank

[zubo]

Hi Guys

 

My case is a little different from most others: I originally had an account with a £2000 overdraft which Yorkshir Bank decided must go and be replaced with a personal loan even though I had just lost my job and picking up only dole money. I went in to explain that my unemployment was temporary but didnt seem to make much difference. Anyway after 18months and back in employment I noticed for some reason they were allowing me £1500 overdraft, and so after bein unemployed for 2 years i was brassic, in no time I was upto my overdraft.

 

Anyway I had changed to a better job opened a bank account with another bank, but for a month was slow in transferring my pay across to YB. They responded by hitting me hard with charges etc and despite my nice letter asking them to cancel charges they would not shift. I found this great site here, put the account in dispute, followed the instructions - got my statements, ploughed through and set out my case for recovery of £1200ish. Because I owed them £1600ish with their fresh charges, I simply sent them a cheque for the difference with a statement of all the illegal charges, and instructed them to close my account.

 

They now keep sending me letters saying that I am over my overdraft limit and that they will apply daily charges until I correct it. I have written to my local manager telling him to stop harrasing me and close the account. I heard nothing, except a call from their collections asking if I could make the current month payment for my overdraft loan!! I told him that I asked my manager when the monthly payment was due and what references to quote on the payment and two weeks later had heard nothing. So I told the loans collection lad to send me the details in the post to respond when I got home this weekend. A week later and nothing!

 

I just received yet another letter chasing me re my alleged overdraft. There is a piece of legislation re harrasment for a debt, I'll find that and send that to the branch threaten them with action. Any other suggestions?

 

thanks

[zubo]

Hi

 

I have been having a little battle with the Bank re manual interventions and I noted elsewhere on the site, other posters have commented on not worrying about it, but if it is there then I intend to use it.

 

their last letter said: 'You also requested details of any manual intervention and quote various sections from the DPA 1998. Section7(1)(d) relates to automated decisions. The right of the Data Subject under the Act does not extend to information on manual reconsideration of automated decisions. We therefore restate our previous comments that you are not entitled to any information under the Act relating to manual interventions'

 

I think that this is quite a critical part of the legislation and had previously warned them that not only would I lodge the necessary grievance with the Commissioner regarding their non compliance, I would also insist that the entire process the Bank has used to respond to my request under the DPA be fully audited by the Commissioner to ensure full compliance.

 

My latest response to try to enlighten the Bank as to what section 7(1)(d) really means is:

 

I would refer you to your paragraph related to manual intervention. Section 7(i)(d) does not relate to automated decisions and refers to exactly the opposite of your letter, and I quote from the Act –

 

‘where the processing by automatic means of personal data of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct, has constituted or is likely to constitute the sole basis for any decision significantly affecting him, to be informed by the data controller of the logic involved in that decision-taking.’

 

What does this mean? It means for example that where your automatic systems related to my personal data are used by you to evaluate my creditworthiness, make decisions about me or any other matter significantly affecting me, then you are obliged to provide me with the logic you took in arriving at your decision. So every time you have made a non-automated decision regarding me, then you need to supply me with information related to that decision and the logic you used. I will cite you one example, there are many more, there was a decision to withdraw my overdraft – that was a manual intervention covered by the Act.

 

Therefore you are quite clearly wrong in stating that under the terms of the Act I am not entitled to this information – I have demonstrated that I am entitled to this information under the Act.

 

Please review my records held by your Bank throughout the previous six years and provide me with that information. You have failed to do so within the statutory time allowed but I will allow you 14 days from the date of this letter to provide this information or to state in unambiguous terms that there has been no manual intervention.

__________________________

 

Anyone care to comment?

[caro]

Wow, you seem to have been doing your homework. I confess to not knowing enough about manual intervention to make a significant comment, but I do know that the ICO has not proved terribly effective, and are so swamped with work that they are taking a long time to respond. There are particulars of claim details in the bank templates library if you want to consider court action to try and force the issue.

[zubo]

I had an overdraft of £1500 - now £1711 which they wanted me to stick below £1500. I had calculated and sent a cheque of £289 + their illegal charges to clear and close the account.

 

Well I had a response re my case, basically saying that their charges were needed because blah blah blah secure computer systems etc and they were not unreasonable, but don't want to go to court so here is £500 and your cheque back - so thats nearly £800.

 

Here is my response:

 

Dear Sirs

 

I refer to your letter dated 16th August 2006.

 

I have read your response and assertions regarding the fairness of your charges and must disagree with you. The charges you made against my account cannot possibly be construed as fair – they are punitive and clearly illegal and I would have expected that having been brought to your attention you would have responded correctly and appropriately.

 

I have enclosed your cheque which is unacceptable and my claim against you still stands. My cheque for £289.60 is returned to you as the full extent of my indebtidness towards you.

 

Despite several letters to the branch asking them to stop harassing me with letters generated by your computer system advising me of Advice of Unauthorised Overdraft, you continue to do so. I will repeat – cease and desist immediately: this is in contravention to Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970, and the Protection from Harassment Act 1970 and I believe your harassment places you in breach of these acts.

Finally you are in breach of the Data Protection Act since you have not provided me with any information related to manual intervention contrary to the requirements of the Act and to the prescribed timescales. It is my intention to lodge a complaint with the Information Commissioner seeking full remedy at law which you are clearly violating.

 

Yours Sincerely

[caro]

Good for you. I am not up on all the legal bits you have put in, but could I just point out that the charges are unlawful and not illegal. Illegal is against criminal law which does not cover the charges, although there is some debate about that on the site I believe.

[zubo]

Caro

 

thanks for the encouragement.

 

mmm unlawful vs illegal ... if it is unlawful then isnt that breaking the law? ie it is illegal - or does one describe the act ie its the verb and the other an adverb? ie its the same thing...

 

i haff grate dificultys wiv yor inglish wurds!!!

 

Either way they are edit and should be punished, I will use every legal means I can find.

 

Also watch out for my new attack on the airline with a tiny customer service!!!!

 

george

Please do not use libelous terms that could cause problems for the site.

[caro]

illegal - criminal law

 

unlawful - civil law

 

I believe that is right.

[zubo]

Hi all

 

An update for you:

 

Remember that my dispute is a little different - I had an overdraft of £1500 that with additional illegal charges now stands at £1800. I had at the outset identified all the illegal charges and sent them on two occasions £300 to close the account. They declined, they had offered me £500 which I also declined and returned to them. They then closed the account and handed the account to their solicitors who for the last four weeks hounded me for payment and added their own charges. I have written and emailed them all the letters and still they chase me and threaten me with court action.

 

So.... I am thinking that I will send them a LBA telling them that I am taking them to court to recover these illegal charges and when I have won I will send them a cheque to clear the account.

 

What do you think...... ?

 

George

[zubo]

Well the Solicitors have decided to send in the dogs. The dogs is an outfit called Fairhalsen Collections from Leeds - they have sent me a pay or agree terms in next 7 days or we will send a debt collector to your home or we will begin legal action.

 

I emailed a response and sent them same in post:

 

Copy of email sent

 

Dear Sirs

 

I have received a copy of your communication and attach the letter I sent to your client.

I do not acknowledge the debt your client claims and have put this account in dispute – it is therefore unenforceable.

 

I would advise you that I live in a private road and your collectors will be trespassing should they approach my property and since I have advised you of these facts. You are therefore not allowed onto my property and any attempt will be treated as trespass and I will prosecute you accordingly.

 

Your client has been offered three times the total amount I acknowledge as owing to them, and three times this has been declined.

My conditional offer is still open to them to accept and I am sure that the court – should you wish to procede to court – would wish to know why your client has not accepted my offer.

 

I therefore suggest that you refer this back to your client

 

I await your response

 

Sincerely

[zubo]

Just got letter from the Bank referring to my email. They basically have restated their standard defence - the account was to be operated on our T&C

 

these were fair given

 

the cost of maintaining administrative systems

 

the increased risk of loss from unauthorised transactions

 

the need to operate standard procedures and set charges

 

Usual rubbish really, referred me back to the dogs to settle or else.

 

I feel I am at a point where I have no choice but send them an LBA and force a court case, then as part of this offer to pay them the £300 I believe I owe them to clear the balance on the account.

 

Anyone with a view?

 

thanks

[zubo]

I have decided to go onto the offensive and send the LBA. It may seem a little strange but if I go to court for the £1500, I can then acknowledge that I owe the Bank £300 which they declined to take from me three times - seems quite a strong approach.

[zubo]

Surprise: LBA was ignored, so I just prepared my N1 and will lodge it in the Court on Monday.

 

I just got a letter from the DCA who YB set on me and whom I told a month ago to go away because the account was in dispute with YB. They have resumed their scaremongering -

'we are preparing a file for a full status enquiry' - our procedures -'

'We shall obtain a full means statement of your income and expenditure'

'We shall undertake enquiries to establish if your employment status meets with our guidelines for an Attachment of Earnings to be carried out'

'We shall instruct an agent to call at your home'

 

these guys are like a proverbial bad smell. Can anyone help me with reference to the law and/or TS - I have given them all the info re the dispute, I am about to start court procedings, the account is in dispute - are they not obliged under law to not interfere with due process?

 

thanks

[tamadus]

Zubo,

 

Looking through your thread you seem to have it in hand, include on your claim that any adverse data recorded should be removed, just in case they have recorded a default.

 

I would also write to the DCA and Solicitor stating clearly that any charges they choose to add onto the account are denied and will be contested once the main dispute is resolved.

 

Once the court issue the paperwork then these people have no choice but to back away otherwise they will basically be in contempt of court, aa they will clearly be acting in a situation the court has control over.

 

As you have said once the charges issue is resolved send them the balance and it's dealt with.

 

PM me if you need any more help.

 

Oh before I forget, Hi Caro

[zubo]

Thanks Tamadus, appreciate your time.

Communication is a wonderful weapon as I mentioned on another post trying to help someone. If you don't write to these people they use it to justify their attack on you, but if you do write then you too can use it in your defence.

 

I will write - and thanks for the tip re Default - never thought they would do that - but of course they would! - I will amend the claim to include remove all Default Notices registered with credit agencies (if any).

[tamadus]

It would be a good idea to get a copy of your credit report just to check but I think we can assume that a default will have been recorded. MAy as well include it's removal as part fo this claim. Otherwise you have to go through it all again.

[zubo]

Submitted N1: Had a reply from the court.

 

Deemed served 9/2 YB have until 23/2 to reply.

 

Watch this space.

[zubo]

Bankfodder

 

Tried to PM you - your inbox is full.

 

Anyone - question:

 

Make sure that it is clear to the court that you have tried to pay them . Keep any evdince of this including enveleopes etc and send a written confirmation to them that you attempted and they refused.

They have aduty to mitigate their losses and they should have accepted.

 

Don't worry too much - things might look quite different in 28 days from now!!

 

Bankfodder

 

Thanks for that and the support!

 

I used a standard POC and made no mention of the fact that I did acknowledge I owed something and had offered to pay that. You state the blindingly obvious! Should I submit an N244 and insert that - it certainly would seem appropriate.

 

Thanks

[caro]

Hi Zubo (I got the message in the end by the way and will sort shortly). I wouldn't worry about amending the claim. When the time comes your letters and evidence can go in your court bundle, and you could also write a letter to the judge when you come to complete the AQ explaining you tried to pay. In fact you your probably put it on your AQ as a reason for not allowing a stay to negotiate a settlement. You tried, they refused, so why allow more time now? The judge won't see it until the AQ is completed so that will do the trick.

[zubo]

Caro

 

Thanks for that, of course it's best to reveal these things gradually where they belong....

[caro]

TBH Zubo I found it just about impossible to do anything to hurry the court or YB, or at least not until the court date was approaching.

[zubo]

Update:

 

YB filed defence just within timescales, Court has sent me that plus AQ to complete by 26-03-07.

I have used the template but with added revised strategy for Draft Order for Directions as per BankFodder sticky, and I have included that they declined my cheque in settlement of the overdraft - twice.

 

I will send this on Friday 1st Class.

 

Z

[zubo]

Update:

 

YB filed defence just within timescales, Court has sent me that plus AQ to complete by 26-03-07.

I have used the template but with added revised strategy for Draft Order for Directions as per BankFodder sticky, and I have included that they declined my cheque in settlement of the overdraft - twice.

 

I will send this on Friday 1st Class.

 

Z

 

In fact I did not send it first class - I took it round and delivered it to the court.

 

I now have had their solicitors send me a copy of their AQ.

They have requested a one month delay. I think I will not object because when they fail to negotiate in that month I will mention that in the resumed court case.

 

Z

[caro]

Don't forget that there are 2 parties involved in this claim, and both are equally at fault if they don't attempt to settle. If you offer to settle that will look even better.

 

I suggest you offer to amend the claim by the amount of their actual costs for your little indiscretions, although you will require evidence of their actual costs in order to do this.

[zubo]

Don't forget that there are 2 parties involved in this claim, and both are equally at fault if they don't attempt to settle. If you offer to settle that will look even better.

 

I suggest you offer to amend the claim by the amount of their actual costs for your little indiscretions, although you will require evidence of their actual costs in order to do this.

 

Caro

 

What a clever idea. The court presumably will look at both AQ and I suspect issue a stay for a month. When I get that I will take the initiative.

 

Z

[caro]

Caro

 

What a clever idea. The court presumably will look at both AQ and I suspect issue a stay for a month. When I get that I will take the initiative.

 

Z

 

Credit where it's due, BankFodder suggested it for my claim and I'm sure others too. He's the clever one.