Help please! halifax claimform **discontinued**

[f1owers]

So it begins.

 

I SAR'd them on 15.01.09 and package of useless paper has just been delivered. My SAR request was the standard template asking for eveything. I have received an application form back which appears to be my orginal application dated October 2008 for a Leeds Visa card.

 

My card now is a Halifax mastercard. I was sent the new Mastercard but never had any new agreement etc to go with it.

 

I will attempt to scan my agreement - its very faded so is very difficult to read.

 

Am a bit confused as to why my signature is dated 09.10.03 but there is a received stamp saying 10.08.93???

 

Could you please try and strain your eyes to see if it complies?

 

Many thanks.

[tendogs]

Too small try Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

[f1owers]

Am uploading now. Just looking at it again.... am pretty sure it is defective. From the look of it - it is one of those 3 fold page applications (instructions at top to moisten here). Can't see terms anywhere.

 

Upload complete!

 

Halifax SAR picture by f1owerss - Photobucket

[cerberusalert]

It's difficult to read but there seems to be some sort of APR% mentioned on the upper right side.

 

Does it state what the repayment terms are or anything about credit limit?

[f1owers]

Have squinted as much as I can

 

Credit limit is to be determined - no actual limit given

APR shown for various credit limits on purchases and cash advances.

Payment of % (can't read figure) of balance or minimum £5

Interest charged on daily basis

Something about a handling charge.

 

There is no agreement number anywhere.

 

Is the fact that the application form is for Visa and my card now being Mastercard not salient?

 

Thanks

[tendogs]

I can't see any repayment terms or any mention of a credit limit. I can see a box indicating that the aplicant was self employed and also a box requesting PPI having been ticked. I would think that the PPI would not cover a self employed person. Do you have any details about the PPI? Was it paid?

[f1owers]

PPI was cancelled years ago.

 

Top right hand side starts in capitals:

 

Under the terms of this agreement as set out overleaf....

 

The Leeds will ...???.... you of the credit limit from time to time ..??....

 

Credit Limit

£500

£800

£1250 on RHS of this list is APR for purchases /cash advances

£1500

£2500

 

Below that appear to be the numer of points relating to % of balance or minimum payment of £5 etc....

 

Does that help?

[cerberusalert]

To be honest it seems to have all the prescribed terms but because it's not legible they haven't fullfilled your CCA request, so in effect you can dispute it and insist they provide a legible copy.

[cerberusalert]

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. The items you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. It neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until XX/XX/2008 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

 

Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me.

 

 

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

 

 

**amend to suit your circumstances.**

[f1owers]

Many thanks for your help so far.

 

However, I do still have some concerns:

 

1. Their part of the agreement is not signed

2. My card is mastercard now not visa

3. Their received stamp is dated 2 months before I signed it.

 

Any further insight?

[cerberusalert]

There is a hand written note at the bottom mentioning something about a cheque 16/06/93...are you sure you didn't just date the application wrongly?

 

Even though they didn't sign it a judge would probably view it as valid.

 

I'm not sure whether it being marked as visa will make any difference.

 

Send the in dispute letter anyway & see what that throws up.

[tendogs]

I think that there are a number of things that need addressing, default notice, notice of asignment etc, etc but let's go with the letter that cerberusaalert has posted and see what they send you.

[f1owers]

I am not in dispute with them about anything at the moment. My account is up to date.

[f1owers]

Have been looking at the copy agreements at

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

 

and the virgin one has way more terms than mine albeit on the back of the signature page. It is said that it is improperly executed "for loads of reasons" but does not really say why.

 

Sorry to be a pest!

[cerberusalert]

I Subject Access Request'd them on 15.01.09 and package of useless paper has just been delivered. My Subject Access Request request was the standard template asking for eveything. I have received an application form back which appears to be my orginal application dated October 2008 for a Leeds Visa card.

 

If that's the case why is this application dated 1993?

[f1owers]

Sorry, my mistake. Date on my application is 09.10.93.

[cerberusalert]

Until the you get a copy of them which is legible it is impossible to say whether the agreement is enforceable or not.

 

The Virgin agreement you refer to above was not enforceable because the prescribed terms were not within the 'four corners' of the agreement nor was there any link to them being on a seperate page.

[f1owers]

Hi again

 

Am getting no where with obtaining a more legible copy from them.

 

I have been squinting as much as I can and although I think a lot of the prescribed terms are there - I suspect more should be there. I have been looking at the Consumer Credit Regulations 1983 - Schedule 1 paragraph 22 says there should be

 

"(1) A list of any charges payable under the

agreement to the creditor upon failure by the

debtor or a relative of his to do or refrain from

doing anything which he is required to do or

refrain from doing, as the case may be."

 

Would this information missing make the agreement improperly executed and therefore unenforceable? There is nothing in the agreement about charges to be levied - late payment fees etc...

 

Should new forms and agreements not have been completed when it changed from Visa to Mastercard?

 

No where in the stuff that came from my SAR request is anything transferring my account from Leeds Building Society to Halifax.

 

On the right hand side of the application form is the small writing - the financial details only make up a very small part of it - I summarised them as best I could in an earlier post.

 

Each of the financial conditions has a reference to a specific clause at the end...

e.g

 

An annual charge of £12 will be debited when your account is opened and annually thereafter (Clause 4c)

 

My agreement is one of those three fold application forms where you gum the edges and post. I have a scan of the back of the form too - certainly no terms and conditions on it.

 

And as a final question - how do I know that the APR has been calculated right. There is no mention of any other interest - just APR figures?

 

Many thanks for any help.

 

xx

Edited March 27, 2009 by f1owers
Can't spell!

[cerberusalert]

I've asked Sequenci to have a look at this for you.

[f1owers]

Bump?

[sequenci]

I'm going to ask some of the other guys to take a look at this one for you. I'm at work so cannot spend time on this one until this evening

[f1owers]

Thanks - any help is much appreciated.

 

xx

[f1owers]

To try and help I have typed out what I can make out....

 

Below is the best deciphering I can make out from the copy provided:

 

Under the terms of this agreement as set out overleaf:

 

(NB there is nothing overleaf bar their address, a dark page, and paragraphs re Safeguarding pin, refunds and cardholder claims, authorised users, variation of agreement, credit cover, and general - as previous said, all illegible)

 

1. The Leeds will determine (?) and ?? you of the credit limit from time to time (Condition ?) Initially it will be a figure ??? in the table below:

 

Credit Limited APR for purchases APR cash advances

 

£500 26.1% 28.4%

£800 25.0 ??

£1250

£1500 FIGURES ARE THERE

£2500

 

2. An annual charge of £12 will be debited when your account is opened and annually thereafter (Condition 4)

 

3. Within 25 days of the date of your monthly statement you must pay at least 5% of the amount shown as outstanding or £5 ????? full amount is less than £5 whichever is the greater (conditon 5)

 

4. Interest will be charged on a daily basis at the rate of 1.75 (?) per month (Condition X)

 

5. A handling charge of ?? of the amount of any cash advance or £?? ewhichever is the greater will be debited to the card account ?? any cash advance

 

6. In calculating the annual percentage rate we have taken into account the annual charge and the credit limit but not any variation in the rate of interest, the cash advance handling charge, the annual charge or other charges which the Leeds has power to vary at any time (Condition 10)

 

That is the grand total of financial information given. Nothing re charges etc.

 

I have no documents showing transfer of account from Leeds Visa to Halifax Mastercard.

[f1owers]

Have been doing some homework on this myself as well - would appreciate some thoughts on my thoughts as it were....

 

"Section 60(1) says that the Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents embodying regulated agreements and these regulations are mainly laid down in the various schedules to the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983."

 

Looking at Schedule 1 - Information to be contained in documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements other than modifying agreements:

14A A statement of the order or proportions in which any amount paid by the debtor which is not sufficient to discharge the total debt then due under the agreement will be applied or appropriated by the creditor towards the discharge of sums due - a) in respect of the amounts of credit provided for different purposes, or b) different parts of the agreement.

 

My agreement shows different rates for purchases and cash advances. There is nothing to say how my payments will be allocated

 

22 Charges. 1) A list of any charges payable under the agreement to the creditor upon failure by the debtor or a relative of his to do or refreain from doing anything which he is required to do or refrain from doing as the case may be.

2) A statement indicating any term of the agreement which provides for charges a) not required to be shown under (1) above or (b) not included in the total charge for credit.

 

My brief financial details on the form have nothing about any sort of charges

 

Then - moving on to CCA 1974

61.--(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless--

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

 

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

 

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

My signed document does not embody all the terms of the agreement other than implied terms. My documents refers to details overleaf that are not there and my vague prescribed terms refer to conditions not there.

 

If you add to the above points the whole confusion over my agreement relating clearly to a Leeds visa and me never having signed any further agreement for a Halifax mastercard. My paperwork makes no reference to card(s) or any possibility that further cards may be issued. It is very specific - Leeds visa, Leeds visa customers etc

 

There is no statement in accordance with Schedule 2 of Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 relating to missing payments and impact of missing payments.

 

Is there any hope for me in disputing enforceability with a view to seeking a full and final??

 

Edited April 4, 2009 by f1owers
Had more to add

[f1owers]

Not convinced by my own arguments now I have looked at Schedule 6 and prescribed terms for enforcement. Only hope appears to be the bit that says

 

A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his

obligations under the agreement to make the

repayments, which may be expressed by reference

to a combination of any of the following--

(a) number of repayments;

(b) amount of repayments;

© frequency and timing of repayments;

(d) dates of repayments;

(e) the manner in which any of the above may be

determined;

or in any other way, and any power of the creditor

to vary what is payable.

 

I would presume that would relate to incurring charges as this would affect the monthly sum payable as it would mean more than the % stated. Any thoughts on this?

 

Am going to CCA them to see what application form they send. I presume if they do not send me my original signed application form they must at least send me a Leeds Visa application form with current terms and conditions. If they do send me my original (which I already have a copy of from them) - at least I can push them to provide something slightly more legible.