Advice Needed - ScotCall... the first of many!

[BritishPhoenix]

Hi there,

 

I've been trawling through different threads trying to pick up the gist of what I need to do here, but I guess there's nothing like having a specific address to your specific case, otherwise it's confusing, so I hope some folks here with experience can help me.

 

Cut a long story short, I had a business fail on me a few years ago and I plunged significantly into debt with a combination of business loan, overdrafts and the inevitable credit cards.

 

Part of the problem was an issue with a certain Scottish bank which, for want of a better word, was massive malpractice which, if you look back at events, was actually the steamroller which set off a domino effect and should never have happened because the bank, at all times, were at fault and not me.

 

That said, I've been blessed that the bank affairs involved another party and between the two of us we've stood up to fight. That particular matter is with the Financial Ombudsman Service and is under active investigation. We did thorough research and with tips from various sources, including here, we've managed to catch the bank out in so much compromise that it has made the FOS raise an eyebrow and even admit that they have nearly identical casefiles stacking up on their desks. Suffice it to say that the Scottish bank, even without their part in the collapse of the global banking industry (hoorah), have been very naughty boys and girls indeed.

 

We're confident that while significant amounts of money will have to be paid to clear the debt, that they'll be less significant than the amounts being demanded currently because we believe that all default charges, late charges and interest accrued since the time of the 'default incidents' are actually unlawful because they arise from the bank's action (or inaction) rather than mine.

 

Nonetheless, I still have some large personal debt to deal with, and I may have started going about this the right way, or the wrong way...

 

From the outset, a friend of mine who was familiar with Consumer Action Group and some of the 'fight the banks' movements said 'stop paying everything immediately... if you're going to end up being credit blacklisted anyway, then resist it, fight it, and you'll probably find you get better solutions in the long run.' So I stopped paying everyone. Some of these creditors haven't been paid for over three years. And I noticed a strange pattern... If I default, even by accident, on a commercial debt - an account owed, or a payment for goods - I am threatened with court and within three months I'm finding out that a debt lawyer is appealing to the court for a payment order. With these debts I have telephone harrassment, I have 'call us now' letters, I have threats of legal action, but some of these debts have gone 3-4 years without a single payment, and with me utterly avoiding all communication with them. And no court action. Why?

 

I digress. It was suggested to me that one of two things should be pursued at this stage. First, since the banks had written the debts off and sold them to DCA's, that I should resist the notion of paying DCA's in full, and could look to make a 'settlement' like IVA's do, except without the IVA company creaming me further. I was told that the longer the debt goes unpaid, the more risk the liability is to the DCA, the more likely they are to agree an amenable settlement. Not sure if that's just a myth, but it seems like a sound theory. Second, I was instructed that when debts are passed from DCA to DCA and I'm sent new 'introductory' communications, to admit nothing and to do whatever it takes to confuse matters because apparently DCA's aren't good at selling each other legally enforcible paperwork, just names and figures on a database.

 

In short, I was advised by a friend, even though it doesn't sound too ethical, that I shouldn't pay ANY alleged debt that the Collector of the debt cannot prove in court that they are rightfully owed. It sounds like a 'weasel out of paying' kind of tactic and I suppose when you've ended up broke and you have no money and an intermittent job it probably is exactly that. So I have to square with being one of those loathed consumers who ran up debt, couldn't pay it, and then wants to weasel out of it. I think the banks can afford it, and if they can't produce paperwork and enforce it, then shame on them, and they deserve it. As for DCA sharks buying up people's misfortune for what I presume is a pittance, and then trying to collect a bunch of money that they didn't earn, with all those horrible coercion tactics... well... hell isn't hot enough.

 

So I have about five such claims against me, none to my recollection have been paid a thing in at least two to three years. All have been as persistent as they can. One has already been addressed, but I'm not sure whether I addressed it the right way because I did so with fragments of information...

 

It was Link Financial who took on a debt for a bank who had proposed a 60% write off with me and then a day after they proposed it, sold the debt to Link who decided to enforce the full amount. This is spring 2007. Since then Link have been advised that I had an agreement and a dispute with the bank in question (a credit card) and that I agreed a settlement with them in writing which is arbitrarily not being honoured, and I will ONLY deal with the bank with whom I agreed an arrangement. Link disadvantaged themselves by writing to me claiming I had a debt with a bank that I never did business with, at which point I wrote denying such an account. They wrote back and said they just got the name wrong but the debt was valid, so I responded that they couldn't just flick through a list of banking institutions and pick one to try to charge a debt against me, and that I required proof of debt. In March last year I sent them two letters in an envelope sent recorded delivery. One was an instruction to stop harrassment telephone calls. The other was a CCA/Disclosure letter accompanied with a postal order for the required amount demanding the proof of their ownership of a debt in my name. They immediately went silent for months. No letters. No phone calls. Then the phone calls started again, and I ignored them. Then the letters started. Then someone in my family slipped and answered the phone to a call centre number and gleefully said 'oh yes, he's here... just a moment' and handed me the phone. So I got the usual 'can you confirm' and obviously told them 'no.' Name? 'No.' Address? 'No.' Can we...? 'No.' I was told 'we can't work with you to solve this problem unless you discuss it with us...' I said 'I can live with that.' So then I got the 'we'll go to court' and I exploded on the phone... 'If you can go to court, go to court... we'll discuss it with a judge... provide some documents and do it... don't talk about it, just do it... stop threatening and start acting...' And I told them that they had been issued an order to provide documentation and that their claim was in dispute and their obligation to provide documentation was in default. So he denied they had a letter saying any such thing. I pointed out that it was recorded delivery and I had a proof of receipt. So he very quickly said 'yes, we received a letter instructing us that you didn't want to talk to us on the phone...' My answer? 'And yet you're in violation of the instruction and you're here talking to me on the phone...'

 

They're still attempting to ring, and occasionally they write letters demanding that I contact them to resolve the matter. Yet I'm pretty sure that after more than a year their debt is unenforcible....? Is that correct? Or can they sell it to another DCA and the process starts again?

 

Now... I'm not sure that I went about everything on that case the right way, or jumped through the right hoops, or rather made them jump through the right hoops... It was a concoction of fragments of advice, possibly a botched job...

 

I want to get this one right...

 

So please advise me... I have not acted in ANY form yet...

 

An account with a credit card with my name on which has had some form of repayment history before it defaulted and got inflated with charges ended up in the hands of Cabot. Being naive and panic stricken in the early days, phone calls were had with Cabot discussing 'reduced payments' which I couldn't make and the whole thing plunged totally into default. Cabot have been trying to enforce, and I've written to them in the past to explain 'severe financial distress' and so on, can't remember exactly what I wrote, I'll have to find my records. Anyway, this account has just this week turned up at Scotcall who sent me my nice introductory letter telling me that I need to pay in full within 7 days or get a doorstep collector, else I can make a 'realistic offer of repayment.' The Creditor is listed as Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd, so I'm guessing that indicates that Cabot bought the alleged debt from the CC company and it has now been transferred to ScotCall as a 'Cabot' issue with no reference to the originating financial institution.

 

What do I do?

 

I asked my friend and he said 'if you're unsure, check it out on CAG - but your aim is that if the debt is unenforcible, pay nothing at all... if it is enforcible, get a settlement that suits you and leaves you with as little financial detriment in the present and in the future.'

 

So if that sounds like the name of this game to you guys, I need a strategy that gets me there...

 

Primarily it seems a number of concepts, aims, are paramount here...

 

1. Don't pay unless you have to and then pay as little as you possibly can.

2. Don't get phone calls.

3. Don't get doorstep visitors.

4. If possible cause as much pain to the DCA's as humanly possible. Apparently this is called 'karma' and I have something to do with effecting it.

 

If you can talk me/guide me through what to do here and how/why it works, maybe I can understand it well enough to apply the same process to the other outstanding debts.

 

It's funny... I probably have £12k claimed against me. I'll wager that maybe half, or a bit less than half of that is probably monies invented by the institutions as interest or late charges and so on. I could probably muster about £5k or so if they'd all divide it up as settlement and leave me alone (and not blacklist my credit rating) but I don't know how to present that as an idea without incriminating myself to such a degree that the procedures to make the DCA's jump through hoops and possibly prove a debt unenforcible couldn't be applied later, so I guess I need to do that first, and use settlement as a last resort. As my friend said, 'why pay them anything if they couldn't enforce that debt in court? They're behaving even more unscrupulously and mercenary than you are... stick it to em!'

 

I'm sorry for the long epistle of the BritishPhoenix, but I'm confused and could use the help...

 

Thanks for your time and assistance!

 

Keep fighting the good fight!

[dx100uk]

i'd start the process again by firing off a cca request to everyone whom claims you owe them money

 

dx

Edited June 12, 2009 by 42man

[BritishPhoenix]

Sorry, could you be a bit more clear?

 

Which bit is 'waffle'?

 

My experience and situation?

 

The advice I've been given and action taken so far?

 

My request for help in general?

 

I can't quite work it out, and if you're not offended, I'm just understandably skeptical that in situations as serious as this, and with as much gravity, 'fire off a CCA to everyone who claims you owe them money' doesn't seem to be much explanation or guidance to go on...

[dx100uk]

its a bit diff to wade thru it all and work out how many debts you have, who are they with & what actions you have taken so far with each one.

 

i'll treat this as a general enq for now.

those that do not have a valid CCA, you can offer a very very low F&F to

and those you do have a valid CCA for, you TELL then what they are going to get PCM whilst in financial difficulties.

 

any charges or PPI need to be reclaimed on everything bar bank A/C's

 

sorry

 

dx

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello BritishPhoenix!

 

Firstly, welcome to CAG.

 

You will get help. Sorry for the above reception, that is not representative of CAG.

 

I know the hassle you are going through, and totally understand the way you have tackled it. Indeed, I wish I had done the same, instead of working like a dog, in the deluded assumption that bankers were reasonable, and were trying to help.

 

At 01:10, it's too late to start advising, so I'll come back to this in the Morning...indeed, make that the Weekend, as I have a few jobs Tomorrow.

 

But the key now is to draw up what can only be called a battle plan, and then deal with each issue carefully. There may be ways to get some of the parasites off your back, but it's more likely that you will have a few more years of hassle until the Debts get to the Statute Barred stage at 6 Years...even then, you will get maybe 1-2 years of tail end hassle, although by then, they cannot touch you.

 

The next 2-3 years are the key, and how you handle them can make a big difference to your future sanity and financial well being.

 

Good luck with it all, and I will do all I can to help, as will others.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[pmhcfc]

Sorry, could you be a bit more clear?

 

Which bit is 'waffle'?

 

My experience and situation?

 

The advice I've been given and action taken so far?

 

My request for help in general?

 

I can't quite work it out, and if you're not offended, I'm just understandably skeptical that in situations as serious as this, and with as much gravity, 'fire off a CCA to everyone who claims you owe them money' doesn't seem to be much explanation or guidance to go on...

 

Ok....Here's how things work...Please don't think I'm insulting your intelligence by the way, I'm just going to explain things in simple detail, hoping I'm making myself understandable.

 

DCA's buy a portfolio of debts. These portfolios contain somehwere between 200 and 2000 'debts'. Said DCA's pay anything from 2p and 12p in the pound for the whole portfolio amount. The price is dependant on the amount of 'white data' contained with the debts. 'White data' is basically debtors details..phone numbers..current addresses etc.

 

Depending on the DCA, they will (or should) send you a 'hello' letter, introducing themselves and explaining that they are now 'owners' of the debts. Thereafter, certain DCA's (Cabot is a great example) like to sit on these debts, allowing them to accrue interest, for anything up to four years, then they come chasing. They'll threaten all sorts, but in a very high percentage, they are just empty threats. Some DCA's get to work straight away trying to recoup the monies owed.

 

The first thing to do with these DCA's is (as you know) send them a CCA request and wait and see what they come back with. If they haven't sent you the Original (or a readable copy of) Agreement within 14 days, the debt is officially in dispute and you are perfectly within your rights to withold any further payments until the original agreement (with all the correct terms and conditions) turns up.

 

If, as has happened in many cases, there is no OA to speak of, then no further payments need be made until the debt becomes statute barred and falls off of your Credit Files. Even without and OA the debt, of course, is still owed but there's nothing a DCA can do to enforce it.

 

If a legitimate OA is produced then the next step is to negotiate a Full and Final payment with the DCA. It's of my opinion that a DCA would usually accept 40% of the debt as F & F, but your negotiations should start at about 20%, barter your way up to no more than 40%. However, if you do negotiate a settlement figure, you must (before you pay) insist the DCA writes to you and states that the agreed amount is in F & F settlement of the account, make them assure you they will never chase you for the remainder of the account, nor will they sell the remainder on to another DCA. Finally, get them to agree to wipe your credit file (that's completely wipe it and not just mark it as settled) in respect of the debt.

 

If the DCA tries to play hardball, then you will need to advise them that if that's the case ( they not accepting your F&F offer) then you will have to go down the road of reclaiming all the unlawful charges on the account. DCA's will insist this s done with the original lender, however me and many many others believe ths can be done with the DCA. This is a bridge you can cross as and when, so don't worry about it for now.

 

In respect of Cabot themselves...Farming a debt out to another DCA is usual practice for them. It's very easy to get Cabot's collection boys off the trail, just write to them and tell them the debt's in dispute and it's against OFT guidelines for them (in your case, Link) to be chasing the debt and you'll be reporting them (Link) for doing so. Link, or whoever, will very quickly give the debt back to Cabot.

 

There are many little 'tricks of the trade' to learn with dealing with DCA's, all of which can be picked up from here.

 

And just to finish;

 

My situation is thus (and I'll be very brief).... Sent CCA's to eight different DCA's regarding 10 different debts...I have had four of those debts written off (no OA)...and I am stil awaiting for 6 others, and have been doing so for over 2 years...I haven't paid a penny to any one of them and the debts total about £30k. They all become statute barred quite soon.

 

There is hope and you will get all the help you need from people on here...some more sympathetic than others ;-) The thing is not to worry, DCA's have no powers and are very reluctant to go to court, and even then I know of many cases where they have lost (Cabot in particular).

 

Don't concern yourself with ethics...after all, Ken Maynard (head of Cabot) recently bought himself a £4 million mansion...you think he cares about ethics??...nuff said

 

Keep us posted and ask any questions you have.

[BritishPhoenix]

BRW,

 

Thank you. I look forward to your input.

 

 

PMHCFC,

 

Thank you... that was very comforting, and I feel like I'm under good counsel now. So what is the procedure for the 'CCA' process?

 

 

DX100UK,

 

Thanks for giving it a shot. I DID give a very full picture deliberately, so that anyone trying to help could either identify with having had similar problems, or indeed to determine that their situation was nothing like mine and therefore the advice might not be the same. I didn't specifically list the debts and the creditors because I did state that while there were several, the one with Cabot/Scotcall was the first on the list, and however I dealt with this one would be how I dealt with the rest in turn. I wanted to get a solid starting place that I could come back to as things progress.

 

Thanks anyway, though...

[PGH7447]

 

PMHCFC,

 

Thank you... that was very comforting, and I feel like I'm under good counsel now. So what is the procedure for the 'CCA' process?

 

 

 

Thanks anyway, though...

 

The process for a cca is to send the request with a £1 postal order by recorded delivery, they then have 12+2 days to respond witha valid agreement, by valid it should contain all the required terms and conditions, if it does not then it could well be unenfoceable.

[clemma]

Nice, clear post pmhcfc

[dx100uk]

DX100UK,

 

Thanks for giving it a shot. I DID give a very full picture deliberately, so that anyone trying to help could either identify with having had similar problems, or indeed to determine that their situation was nothing like mine and therefore the advice might not be the same. I didn't specifically list the debts and the creditors because I did state that while there were several, the one with Cabot/Scotcall was the first on the list, and however I dealt with this one would be how I dealt with the rest in turn. I wanted to get a solid starting place that I could come back to as things progress.

 

Thanks anyway, though...

 

my intention by being blunt was to focus you, for that i make no apology.

as we all know, these situations appear rather more daunting on an individualistic basis than what they actually are in reality.

i would rather you or others direct their attention my way against p'haps following a course of action that ultimately damages a recoverable situation.

 

TBH: i can't wait till you start getting [or not] the returns from your CCA requests.

These, as it has with others, will produce results that are potentially life changing in terms of how bad a situation we 'thought' we were in.

 

all power to CAG and how i have also learned the above

CAG helped me & i will be relentless in returning the favour, sometimes though, for which i do apologies, my fire fighting gets the better of me.

 

keep us informed

 

dx

[PGH7447]

my intention by being blunt was to focus you, for that i make no apology.

as we all know, these situations appear rather more daunting on an individualistic basis than what they actually are in reality.

i would rather you or others direct their attention my way against p'haps following a course of action that ultimately damages a recoverable situation.

 

TBH: i can't wait till you start getting [or not] the returns from your CCA requests.

These, as it has with others, will produce results that are potentially life changing in terms of how bad a situation we 'thought' we were in.

 

all power to CAG and how i have also learned the above

CAG helped me & i will be relentless in returning the favour, sometimes though, for which i do apologies, my fire fighting gets the better of me.

 

keep us informed

 

dx

 

Stop Waffling

[dx100uk]

Stop Waffling

 

 

i wish i could post animated avitars........

 

dx

[BritishPhoenix]

OK.

 

Letter written.

 

Postal order included.

 

Recorded delivery.

 

Let's see what happens. I'll be back within 15 days one way or another!