Liability for bills after Mortgage lender directly appointed receiver

[Hungryforinfo]

Can anybody help please with a query in connection with buy to let properties I have had repossessed? The Receiver had been directly appointed by the mortgage lender (i.e. not court instructed) after I experienced financial difficulty. My query is regarding the liability for council tax and utility payments once the receiver has been appointed by the mortgage lender. Is it possible I still have liability for payment of the council tax and utility bills after the receivers appointment? I am worried as I have had debt collectors on behalf of utility companies trying to trace me. I paid all the utiility and council taxes off to the point of the receivers appointment and notified the utility companies and the council concerned regarding the receivers appointment.

 

The receiver has asked me to reply to the council regarding the unpaid tax but this was for a period after they took repossession. I am worried that the directly appointed receiver takes all the income but somehow leaves me with the utility and council tax bills. Can that be possible? I noted in the receivers introductory letter detailing his responsibilities it includes collection of income but does not state anything about payment of bills. I haven't yet checked the mortgage contract as I find it hard to believe it is possible.

[nuke em]

I have had many many experiences with this as an ex BTL landlord, some councils play ball others do not,

 

LPA receivers are what i think you are refering to if i'm correct

i have been successful in some cases, i will get back to you in a few days with more info on what you need to do,

Edited April 15, 2009 by nuke em

[nuke em]

Ok as I mentioned, I have been through this a few times now in the last year ( see my separate post of what happens when they just sell your property)

Ok to answer your points: Technically you are liable for Council tax as you still legally “own” the property ( I know it does not feel like that as the receivers have changed the locks, taken the rental income etc.) BUT in my case I have not had to pay any council tax because I have argued with the councils that the Lenders are de facto in possession. I sent letters to that effect, sometimes where required providing copies of the Lender appointing the LPA receiver. In All cases & some council were harder than others, I managed to get the Council tax liability put in the name of the Lenders ( They have grabbed the property after all)

In regards to Utility bills I did not have to pay any of these, I ‘m assuming that the receiver or any tenant they put in there paid them, worst case I know another ex BTL landlord who did this: Take any name from an LPA receiver’s letter to you and inform the utility company that that person is now the new “tenant” and his old address was that of the LPA Receiver.

Of course, if you had a tenant in there when it was grabbed, then that tenant is liable for council tax & all utilities regardless of the above. If the Receiver has put a tenant in place, then the new tenant is liable in the same way. (try and find out , without talking to the Receiver who exactly lives at your property currently)

Hopefully you have never helped a LPA receiver grab your property by ever speaking or writing to them, they do nothing for you , even though you are told they are YOUR receivers . MY ADVICE is not to communicate with them whatsoever, direct all comments to your lender whilst keep pointing out that the lender is acting as “Mortgagee in Possession” and the LPA Receivers are THEIR appointees.

 

BTW, all leasehold ( if you have leaseholds) service charges & ground rents can be dismissed with letters to the leasehold man agents saying that Property “A” was repossessed on xx Date by XX lender and it is to them that you should seek payment of ground & service charges. Lenders will pay these charges ( but will add them to your mortgage account) because they know that if they do not, then the freeholder can legally take back the lease ( Their security) for nothing

Finally you should ask for proof that the lender has

a) The original mortgage contract with your signature, many loans were packaged up and sold off into these securitized debt “instruments” that we are hearing about these days. It maybe that that your lender who is collecting the mortgage payment is not the actual holder of the orig mortgage document, therefore they can’t enforce the sale of it.

b) Ask for proof that the original mortgage loan document ( see “A” above) contains a clause allowing them to instruct a LPA Receiver in the first place, many don’t , some do. If they are able to produce it and it does not say they can, then you can take them to court, get your property back and kick out the leaching LPA Receiver.

 

Good luck!

[Hungryforinfo]

Nuke Em - Thanks so much for your reply and apologies for the delay in acknowledging both the time you have put in and the information provided. I am virtually full time researching & letter writing at the moment. I am sure you know the feeling! I wrote to the LPA receivers once with an unsigned letter which they didn't bother reading and which consequently generated more work for them to charge against my account when the sent a query to me that had been adressed in the letter I sent them - noses in the trough.

 

Good news - the councils concerned have changed the demands to show zero liability. I was concerned because the LPA receivers letter (not so good news - which was back dated in order to show I was not co-operating and to generate another letter at £125 plus vat an hour) was carefully worded about duty to collect income and nothing regarding costs except their charges.

 

On another point you raise in your post as point a) How is it possible to know if the mortgage lender is or isn't the actual holder of the original mortgage document?

 

 

I previously checked the mortgage contract which was very difficult to understand (not plain English) and it seemed to make provision for directly appointing the receiver.

 

I'll try and find your post about what happens if they just sell your property. This particular receiver seems intent to sell regardless of the market, rental demand etc and writes to advise me he can't be blamed for selling it below value due to non co-operation from me!. Unbelievable!

 

 

I may follow up some of the points you raise as separate threads in the repo section of CAG.

[nuke em]

Nuke Em - Thanks so much for your reply and apologies for the delay in acknowledging both the time you have put in and the information provided. I am virtually full time researching & letter writing at the moment. I am sure you know the feeling! I wrote to the LPA receivers once with an unsigned letter which they didn't bother reading and which consequently generated more work for them to charge against my account when the sent a query to me that had been adressed in the letter I sent them - noses in the trough.

 

Good news - the councils concerned have changed the demands to show zero liability. I was concerned because the LPA receivers letter (not so good news - which was back dated in order to show I was not co-operating and to generate another letter at £125 plus vat an hour) was carefully worded about duty to collect income and nothing regarding costs except their charges.

 

On another point you raise in your post as point a) How is it possible to know if the mortgage lender is or isn't the actual holder of the original mortgage document?

 

 

I previously checked the mortgage contract which was very difficult to understand (not plain English) and it seemed to make provision for directly appointing the receiver.

 

I'll try and find your post about what happens if they just sell your property. This particular receiver seems intent to sell regardless of the market, rental demand etc and writes to advise me he can't be blamed for selling it below value due to non co-operation from me!. Unbelievable!

 

 

I may follow up some of the points you raise as separate threads in the repo section of CAG.

 

 

+Remember , the receiver is there to charge you fees, sell the property without your help ( sometimes to BMV people who are lurking in their wings) , never to act in you interest & generally screw you over. with this in mind do not correspond with them at all EVER, always direct communication via you lender, keep pointing out that the receivers are there at the lenders request!

 

regarding the mortgage lender that is or isn't the actual holder of the original mortgage document. i suggest you send the lender a Subject Access Request. SAR , to discover all they have, see if they have assigned or sold off the loan

Edited April 28, 2009 by nuke em

[Hungryforinfo]

Thanks for the info although I am not sure what BMV means but have read up on the shady side deals done for receivers to line their own pockets. Truly disgraceful and beyond belief.

 

I am going to decline the suggestion on subject access because I do not want them to know where I am at the moment. The last company I sent a SAR to asked for proof of id and address etc.

[nuke em]

BMV = Behind Market Value , companies ( investors!) who buy behind market value

[Hungryforinfo]

Nuke em I hope you are still there, or if anyone else can please help me with a point Nuke Em raised in this thread re establishing if the mortgage lender has the original copy of the mortgage contract which they need in order to enforce a sale. I have done a web search and one of the mortgage lenders has been involved in selling mortgages off into securitized debt “instruments”.

 

My question - How can I establish if the mortgage lender has the original copy of the mortgage contract? If I ask they will presumably just send me a copy and say they have the original (if they don't presumably this is fraud). If they don't have it presumably they can just ignore me. How can I get to this information?

 

By way of additional information, one of the properties may already have been sold off as the lenders solictors have advised they are going to persue a CCJ against me for the difference.

[nuke em]

Nuke em I hope you are still there, or if anyone else can please help me with a point Nuke Em raised in this thread re establishing if the mortgage lender has the original copy of the mortgage contract which they need in order to enforce a sale. I have done a web search and one of the mortgage lenders has been involved in selling mortgages off into securitized debt “instruments”.

 

My question - How can I establish if the mortgage lender has the original copy of the mortgage contract? If I ask they will presumably just send me a copy and say they have the original (if they don't presumably this is fraud). If they don't have it presumably they can just ignore me. How can I get to this information?

 

By way of additional information, one of the properties may already have been sold off as the lenders solictors have advised they are going to persue a CCJ against me for the difference.

 

 

Hi, send them S.A.R ( subject access rerquest) to find out everthingthing they have on you , use this below & modify it to suit to ask for any info regarding the original mortgage deeds or or their subsequest asignment ,( such as "A genuine copy of any Deed of Assignment, or other documentary evidence (equitable or absolute) that shows that you have any legal authority to pursue this matter on behalf of another company, or in your own right")

) bottom line is , if they dont have the original "note", then it is my understanding that they cant collect. also some of the companies that bought these securitized debt “instruments are offshore hedge funds etc , who would haver to come onshore ( and thus compromise their tax liability position) to claim against you. you might be on to sometyhing here. i know in the USA quite a few people have gone down this route and said no note=no loan ( to be repaid) and judges have agreed.. was your lender GMAC per chance?

 

by the way the mortgage deed is the thing you are after here, not to be confused with whatevedr they register and the Land Registery or the Mortgage App etc

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

With reference to the above account and the alleged mortgage shortfall This request under the DPA does not constitute an admission of any liability and is not an acknowledgment of the debt.

Please would you send me the information which I am entitled to under section 7 (1) of the Data Protection Act 1998. This to include items such as electronic printouts, recorded calls on CDs, documents stored on microfiche. If you do not normally handle these requests for your organisation please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer or another appropriate official. If you need any further information from me please let me know as soon as possible. I would remind you that the Civil Procedure Rules Overriding Objective and Pre-action Protocol Practice Direction require you to disclose these documents within the prescribed time period. Therefore, please supply copies of the documents which I have specified below.

1. Statement of Account

2. Money Judgment Order (if issued)

3. Possession Order (if issued)

4. Certified copy of the riginal Mortgage Deed

5. Certified copy of the Original Mortgage Contract

6. Terms & conditions of the actual mortgage as applicable to the mortgage at the time I bought it.

7. All marketing material shown to me at the time I bought the mortgage.

8. All valuations relating to the sale of the possessed property.

9. All marketing material relating to sale of the possessed property.

10. All records and notes of all telephone conversations relating to the sale of the property after possession.

11. All Copies of notification letter(s) of possession sale.

12. Details of any relevant MIG policy, including its terms and condition, and copies of the same.

13. Details of any relevant endowment policy, including its terms and conditions, and copies of the same.

14. Copy of all marketing material shown to me at the time I bought any relevant endowment.

Please find £10 fee enclosed, paid to you by an associate on my behalf. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.( pay this with a Postal Order not a Cheque)

 

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable for the previous 3 years.

Furthermore, such a request for specific information to confirm my identity will not deviate or inhibit the 40 days time limit allowed for compliance with my Subject Access Request.

 

Please note - If I do not receive all the data I have requested within the timescale specified above,

I shall seek a Court order obliging you to do so, together with damages at the discretion of the Court and without any further notice.

Finally, I would appreciate your Company's due diligence in this matter and look forward to receiving the documentation requested.

Thank you for your co-operation in supplying me with the above information, which is obviously necessary in order to determine the validity of your claim.

Yours faithfully, etc

 

Check out also my post on how 97% of "money" is created, you will see that you lent yourself ( Money which didnt exsist before you signed the mortage note to pay it back) the "money" when the mortagage was created in the first place!

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/175668-how-credit-cards-bank.html

 

 

also check this older board out, some useful info here , although some of if is out of date

Repossession Top Level

Edited April 28, 2009 by nuke em

[Hungryforinfo]

Nuke Em - Thanks so much for your reply particularly as it sounds like you have your own challenges to deal with! I'll get my letters out shortly.

 

Does it make any difference that they have already gone to court in order to get possession albeit unbeknown to me?

 

I am currently not in the Uk and do not want my address revealed (one of my strategies) so I have to hope the identity check information is not asked for. If it is, I guess my worst case (or possibly best case) is that they do go to court for the shortfall (they have created on the money they never had to lend to me!). I am hoping I could then ask for the documentation to prove they had the right to sell it but this will then beg the question why I didn't do anything about the original court case until now (I didn't know about the cases until after the event).

 

Does anyone know if I can obtain the documents referred to iin Nuke Em's last reply other than via a SAR e.g. Do I have a right to see them without an SAR and initiate court proceedings if the lender does not provide them? I realise if I ask nicely they are not likely to co-operate.

[Hungryforinfo]

The Subject Access Reuest deadline of 40 days for one of the 2 mortgage lenders to send me the requested documents has expired by about a week. They wrote to me shortly after receiving my request and advised they will send the documents to me but haven't. This particular lender has previously sold off mortgage debt into the securitized debt “instruments” Nuke Em referred to in an earlier post on this thread.

 

What do I do now? I informed the mortgage lender I will take legal action if they do not prove they had the legal right to sell the properties after repossession.

[pigland]

Hi Nuke em,

I'm about to send a SAR request to the Mortgage lender.

'Please find £10 fee enclosed, paid to you by an associate on my behalf. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties against me, then I shall be reclaiming them, and also reclaiming the enclosed £10 Data Protection Act subject access request fee.( pay this with a Postal Order not a Cheque)'

 

I think I understand the relevance of getting someone else to pay, however I see you mention '£10 by an associate on my behalf' but then you mention pay with a postal order. Could you clarify please, shall I get a friend to write a cheque or pay for the postal order?

 

Thank you

[Hungryforinfo]

The response to my Subject Access Request (SAR) is scant to say the least! They advised me that the majority of the information I asked for was not considered personal information or I am not entitled to under the Data Protection Act. I asked for much of what Nuke Em posted on a separate thread and which I have pasted in below. It could be that some of the info is not provided is obtainable via a CPR request as opposed to a SAR (their sols are making threatening noises about payment of a shortfall after the properties were off for ridiculous prices in order to generate more unnecessary debt:

 

1. Statement of Account

2. Money Judgment Order (if issued)

3. Possession Order (if issued)

4. Certified copy of the original Mortgage Deed

5. Certified copy of the Original Mortgage Contract

6. Terms & conditions of the actual mortgage as applicable to the mortgage at the time I bought it.

7. All marketing material provided to me at the time I bought the mortgage.

8. All valuations relating to the sale of the possessed property.

9. All marketing material relating to sale of the possessed property.

10. All records and notes of all telephone conversations relating to the sale of the property after possession.

11. All Copies of notification letter(s) of possession sale.

12. Details of any relevant MIG policy, including its terms and condition, and copies of the same.

13. Details of any relevant endowment policy, including its terms and conditions, and copies of the same.

14. Copy of all marketing material shown to me at the time I bought any relevant endowment.

I received a statement of account listing transactions for a couple of years but not before (when it was 'owned/administered' by another company), a court order for possession with covering sols letter, an offer of advance form the original 'owner/adminstrator of the mortgage' and some undated offer conditions.

 

QUESTION - Is there anything that I should have received but haven't or could someone refer me to information on what information is to be released under the Data Protection Act?

[hing]

Ok as I mentioned, I have been through this a few times now in the last year ( see my separate post of what happens when they just sell your property)

Ok to answer your points: Technically you are liable for Council tax as you still legally “own” the property ( I know it does not feel like that as the receivers have changed the locks, taken the rental income etc.) BUT in my case I have not had to pay any council tax because I have argued with the councils that the Lenders are de facto in possession. I sent letters to that effect, sometimes where required providing copies of the Lender appointing the LPA receiver. In All cases & some council were harder than others, I managed to get the Council tax liability put in the name of the Lenders ( They have grabbed the property after all)

In regards to Utility bills I did not have to pay any of these, I ‘m assuming that the receiver or any tenant they put in there paid them, worst case I know another ex BTL landlord who did this: Take any name from an LPA receiver’s letter to you and inform the utility company that that person is now the new “tenant” and his old address was that of the LPA Receiver.

Of course, if you had a tenant in there when it was grabbed, then that tenant is liable for council tax & all utilities regardless of the above. If the Receiver has put a tenant in place, then the new tenant is liable in the same way. (try and find out , without talking to the Receiver who exactly lives at your property currently)

Hopefully you have never helped a LPA receiver grab your property by ever speaking or writing to them, they do nothing for you , even though you are told they are YOUR receivers . MY ADVICE is not to communicate with them whatsoever, direct all comments to your lender whilst keep pointing out that the lender is acting as “Mortgagee in Possession” and the LPA Receivers are THEIR appointees.

 

BTW, all leasehold ( if you have leaseholds) service charges & ground rents can be dismissed with letters to the leasehold man agents saying that Property “A” was repossessed on xx Date by XX lender and it is to them that you should seek payment of ground & service charges. Lenders will pay these charges ( but will add them to your mortgage account) because they know that if they do not, then the freeholder can legally take back the lease ( Their security) for nothing

Finally you should ask for proof that the lender has

a) The original mortgage contract with your signature, many loans were packaged up and sold off into these securitized debt “instruments” that we are hearing about these days. It maybe that that your lender who is collecting the mortgage payment is not the actual holder of the orig mortgage document, therefore they can’t enforce the sale of it.

b) Ask for proof that the original mortgage loan document ( see “A” above) contains a clause allowing them to instruct a LPA Receiver in the first place, many don’t , some do. If they are able to produce it and it does not say they can, then you can take them to court, get your property back and kick out the leaching LPA Receiver.

 

Good luck!

 

nuke!! If you are still about, can I please have letters you wrote to Council to get them to issue Council Tax bill to mortgagee-in-possession. All my emails to East Riding of Yorkshire Council have failed to move them one jolt. They are still pursuing me. Please help. Thank you.

[peterboone]

hi nuke em,

 

I have read and used all the information in your posts about Liability for council tax bills after Mortgage lender directly appointed receiver to ask the Wiltshire council to not charge me over 3000 pounds for the flats sitting empty but I was the legal owner and the lender and LPA receiver doing nothing for a year and a half. I live in Surrey, do you suggest I try and have a solicitor argue my case, I am staggered by the solicitor charges they gave me, but don't believe i can get legal aid so what do you suggest, this is really starting to affect my health, also I was discharged from bankruptcy last March.

 

Thanks for any help

Peter

 

Ok as I mentioned, I have been through this a few times now in the last year ( see my separate post of what happens when they just sell your property)

Ok to answer your points: Technically you are liable for Council tax as you still legally “own” the property ( I know it does not feel like that as the receivers have changed the locks, taken the rental income etc.) BUT in my case I have not had to pay any council tax because I have argued with the councils that the Lenders are de facto in possession. I sent letters to that effect, sometimes where required providing copies of the Lender appointing the LPA receiver. In All cases & some council were harder than others, I managed to get the Council tax liability put in the name of the Lenders ( They have grabbed the property after all)

In regards to Utility bills I did not have to pay any of these, I ‘m assuming that the receiver or any tenant they put in there paid them, worst case I know another ex BTL landlord who did this: Take any name from an LPA receiver’s letter to you and inform the utility company that that person is now the new “tenant” and his old address was that of the LPA Receiver.

Of course, if you had a tenant in there when it was grabbed, then that tenant is liable for council tax & all utilities regardless of the above. If the Receiver has put a tenant in place, then the new tenant is liable in the same way. (try and find out , without talking to the Receiver who exactly lives at your property currently)

Hopefully you have never helped a LPA receiver grab your property by ever speaking or writing to them, they do nothing for you , even though you are told they are YOUR receivers . MY ADVICE is not to communicate with them whatsoever, direct all comments to your lender whilst keep pointing out that the lender is acting as “Mortgagee in Possession” and the LPA Receivers are THEIR appointees.

 

BTW, all leasehold ( if you have leaseholds) service charges & ground rents can be dismissed with letters to the leasehold man agents saying that Property “A” was repossessed on xx Date by XX lender and it is to them that you should seek payment of ground & service charges. Lenders will pay these charges ( but will add them to your mortgage account) because they know that if they do not, then the freeholder can legally take back the lease ( Their security) for nothing

Finally you should ask for proof that the lender has

a) The original mortgage contract with your signature, many loans were packaged up and sold off into these securitized debt “instruments” that we are hearing about these days. It maybe that that your lender who is collecting the mortgage payment is not the actual holder of the orig mortgage document, therefore they can’t enforce the sale of it.

b) Ask for proof that the original mortgage loan document ( see “A” above) contains a clause allowing them to instruct a LPA Receiver in the first place, many don’t , some do. If they are able to produce it and it does not say they can, then you can take them to court, get your property back and kick out the leaching LPA Receiver.

 

Good luck!

[skint111]

Hi Hing, I wonder if you could tell me if you got anywhere with your council tax. We had some buy-to-let properties taken over by lpa receiver and are now being aggressively chased by Hull City Council for a debt of over £3000 I have been through all stages of appeal to argue that they were de facto owned by bank/lpa receiver etc etc but got nowhere, would be really interested if you had any success, many thanks