Arrow/evershers CCJ+CO over old MBNA debt

[r&b]

reggie

so sorry u hit another useless DJ. ur rightly upset. with what was in front of him its a travesty.

maybe it wud be worth going thru the hearing on here, what was said etc, whilst its fresh in the memory in case there is anth that can be used and so that those in the know can help with the minutae if reqd.

just a suggestion.

[I've got no money]

You know mate - today is one of those days...

[Rhia]

Some of these judges need sacking. Their job is to dispense justice in line with the laws of the land. I agree appeal this. they don't expect you to.

They think they have dealt with you and that will put others off

I was actually told this by a judge who gave me a similarly rough ride. We have a note of his comments which started "If i allow you this I will be inundated..." well let's inundate them.

 

I have a friend who doesn't post much these days but they won against Arrow Global/Eversheds but had to call in a direct access barrister. I'll see if I can get hold of them to come and look at the thread and share their experience.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Rhia

[I've got no money]

You know the thing that I find frustrating is that consumer law is not actually that difficult yet they just do not listen...

 

The rules say they have to serve a valid DN before they can issue - how is that difficult to understand...

[Cornucopia]

Some of these judges need sacking. Their job is to dispense justice in line with the laws of the land. I agree appeal this. they don't expect you to.

They think they have dealt with you and that will put others off

I was actually told this by a judge who gave me a similarly rough ride. We have a note of his comments which started "If i allow you this I will be inundated..." well let's inundate them.

 

I have a friend who doesn't post much these days but they won against Arrow Global/Eversheds but had to call in a direct access barrister. I'll see if I can get hold of them to come and look at the thread and share their experience.

 

That'll be me! Right, I haven't got time to read the whole thread but I am interested in this issue with the invalid default notice as that is significant. Are we 100% sure the default notice is invalid? I will need to refer to my Barrister's notes on this matter as it has been a long time since my case concluded. It may help with your appeal, which you MUST do!

 

I have a school function to attend shortly, but will come back with the necessary quotes later.

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

[Docman]

You know the thing that I find frustrating is that consumer law is not actually that difficult yet they just do not listen...

 

The rules say they have to serve a valid DN before they can issue - how is that difficult to understand...

 

 

IGNM, having been before 3 DJ's now, I found out later that the first two were Deputy DJs. I suspect they were both retired solicitors (being non-PC for a moment, they were both elderly, white males) of the old school tie brigade. It was clear they ddin't know consumer credit law but didn't want to be embrassed by a LiP espedially before the young solicitor appearing for the creditor.

 

the third judge was the actual DJ and confident in the law. Absolutely no messing around - with both sides, so I couldn't complain. Seems to me Caggers have to expect to come up against the DJ lottery and plan accordingly.

[I've got no money]

IGNM, having been before 3 DJ's now, I found out later that the first two were Deputy DJs. I suspect they were both retired solicitors (being non-PC for a moment, they were both elderly, white males) of the old school tie brigade. It was clear they ddin't know consumer credit law but didn't want to be embrassed by a LiP espedially before the young solicitor appearing for the creditor.

 

the third judge was the actual DJ and confident in the law. Absolutely no messing around - with both sides, so I couldn't complain. Seems to me Caggers have to expect to come up against the DJ lottery and plan accordingly.

 

I'd agree with that - we do need to prepare a response

 

The problem with DDJ isn't so much they are retired rather that you may get one who is a Personal Injury Specialist or one who is a Family Expert - full timers tend to be more all rounders

[reggie76]

Guys, thanks for your support and feedback. I cannot emphasise how annoyed and frustrated I am, I should hit the gym but am hitting the bottle instead and fallen off the wagon!!

 

I need to go about this now the right way and assess the costs involved.

 

Referring to r&b's post- trying to remember what happened today is even now a bit of a blur. I was given no support as a LIP by the DJ and basically shot down in flames, I had a different DJ to my 1st hearing which in itself was frustrating.

When I calm down and won't be babbling I'll attempt to put some constructive comments about that happened today!

 

But I am not letting this DJ get away with what happened today when justice was not done and the law was ignored, it's just not on!

[reggie76]

That'll be me! Right, I haven't got time to read the whole thread but I am interested in this issue with the invalid default notice as that is significant. Are we 100% sure the default notice is invalid? I will need to refer to my Barrister's notes on this matter as it has been a long time since my case concluded. It may help with your appeal, which you MUST do!

 

I have a school function to attend shortly, but will come back with the necessary quotes later.

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

 

Thanks Corn, yes the DN was invalid as it did not allow 14 days from date of service and the DJ acknowledged that the DN and the Termination Notice was invalid.

[reggie76]

The DJ dismissed my set aside application as it would be an injustice to myself and the claimant as Arrow would only go through the whole process again and it would cost me more money!!!

 

He said the CCA was just about legible and ignored my comments about it now having the prescribed terms and said as far as he was concerned I had signed it and therefore he would accept the CCA!

 

He just ignored my comment about unfair charges being included in the outstanding debt.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Reggie76!

 

Sorry to hear this, you must Appeal.

 

Chill out, but try and make as many notes as you can ASAP while this is still fresh in your mind.

 

You have 21 days to get your Appeal in, and there are many more people lurking now who are willing and able to help you.

 

You are the 2nd Case Today that has been shot down in an almost identical fashion, and in both cases the Judges were wrong, badly wrong. Here's the other one:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/208173-having-rankine-american-express.html#post2273613

 

This is what you must get going ASAP, my advice is to really crack on with it, as the 21 Day Deadline is soon gone:

 

(1) Get a Transcript of the Judgement, and a Transcript of the whole Hearing too. They are usually handled in two bits, the Judgment has to be submitted to the Judge for Approval, and there can only ever be one Judgement Transcription. I can recommend a good Transcriber who is on the list of Transcribers that have to be used.

 

This will cost, depending on the time it all took.

 

You may be able to get those Fees back, if on a low Income.

 

(2) Establish your Grounds for Appeal. We will all help there.

 

(3) Establish the correct Route for your Appeal. We will all help there.

 

(4) If the Judge refused your Appeal, get that in writing via Form N460, that's a little bit of paper the duffer should've completed anyway at the end of the Hearing, that's if he refused your Appeal there and then.

 

(5) Appellant's Notice N161. We will help with that too.

 

The rest is just spade work, thrashing out how to tackle this. Ideally, you need a good Barrister. But you may have time to organise that, as Appeals can take quite a while to come to a head, and that time may help you to gather the funds.

 

But right now, have a blurdy big drink!

 

Don't get mad.

 

Get even.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[walshy76]

Hi Mate, I too have had a really bad day in court & BRW has suggested we talk to see if we can help each other, I am sooooo bloody p**sed off tonight, i too am sat here drowning my crappy day. Still going over & over in my head what the judge said & can't believe it.

here is my thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/208173-having-rankine-american-express.html

[micko19]

Good luck to you and your appeal

 

micko19

[N.P]

Hi reggie,

 

Just subbing to this thread.

 

Let`s hope you can get this fixed. We can`t have these morons beating us, especially when they don`t seem to listen and read properley.

 

Here`s hoping mate. Good luck with the appeal, we`re all behind you.

 

 

 

N.P

[Cornucopia]

Thanks Corn, yes the DN was invalid as it did not allow 14 days from date of service and the DJ acknowledged that the DN and the Termination Notice was invalid.

 

Right, if the default notice is invalid, this should be a full defence on its' own and I am very surprised that your DJ thought this was irrelevant, because that is simply not the case under current laws. The creditor can repair the paperwork ie : terminate the current claim, issue a new default notice and termination notice and start a new claim but there are pitfalls in them doing so. This would usually be seen as a complete abuse of process as they should have got it right in the first place.

 

I don't know what your current circumstances are but would certainly recommend you seek legal advice. I retained a Barrister on a public access basis and if it were not for him, I would be in a very different position now.

 

I know you have had a shocking day, but you have three weeks now in which to lodge an appeal and I would certainly concentrate on the invalid default notice as this really is your trump card. I concentrated far too much on the S.78 argument which actually became insignificant after it was revealed that the default notice was invalid (something I actually didn't notice myself despite working on my case for two years!).

 

I wish you luck and will watch the thread with interest.

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

[pedross]

This is interesting Cornucopia Good post

 

I realise that they can issue a new default notice if the account is not terminated because you are still under the original contractual terms.

 

If the account is terminated how can they repair the paperwork. The account is terminated so no longer is there an account to default on. Initially the default is because you do not adhere to contractual terms. The contract has been ended so there are no terms to adhere to and therefore you cannot be in default. How can they then be in a position to issue a new default notice and how can they again terminate an account which does not exist.

 

Please do not think that I am picking on your point I am sure that your input will be very welcome by all posters but I am just trying to understand the reasoning.

 

Pedross

[Rhia]

Corn had the same barrister I used against a different DCA and he is top notch. Like Corn I had laboured points which I thought killers and he just looked at them and declared them hopeless and picked up points I had missed. He won for me too.

 

I think what is being said is that if they have a faulty default notice and have brought an action they will have to discontinue that action. Yes they can get their paperwork back together but the difficulty comes in bringing the same case back to court.

 

They have to get the court's permission to restart a discontinued case. This is unlikely to happen as courts take the view that they should get it right the first time. In the extreme case that the court accepts their application you would be asked if you object to this, which of course you will and will give your reasons.

 

I think you are also right in that they can't produce a default notice as it's been terminated anyway so anything they produce will be a work of fiction. they know it and this judge should have known it

 

In fact i would say that Judge did know this, knew it was hopeless but was biased toward the creditor and pushed it through anyway. He should be reported (if you win on appeal).

 

Reggie get that appeal in. The fog has just started to clear. Corn big thanks for dropping by.

[pedross]

Thanks Rhia

 

I believe you and corn are right and the faulty default notice should be enough on its own.

 

It would be interesting to know if your barrister made any comments about re-issue.

 

Pedross

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Pedross!

 

Please do not think that I am picking on your point I am sure that your input will be very welcome by all posters but I am just trying to understand the reasoning.

I think what needs to be appreciated is the bankers can do anything they want.

 

In the same way that they can issue an original but defective Default Notice and then Terminate...they can just as easily re-issue a 2nd Default Notice and re-Terminate.

 

But just because they can, does not mean it's going to work!

 

Next time you are in your Car on the Motorway, take it to 120mph for a while. There, see, you can do it. It can be done.

 

However, that is not the same as saying the 70mph speed limit no longer exists.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited May 14, 2010 by banker_rhymes_with
Typo

[reggie76]

The first battle may not have been won but the war has just began!

[reggie76]

Hi Mate, I too have had a really bad day in court & BRW has suggested we talk to see if we can help each other, I am sooooo bloody p**sed off tonight, i too am sat here drowning my crappy day. Still going over & over in my head what the judge said & can't believe it.

here is my thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/208173-having-rankine-american-express.html

 

Don't give up, these people should be doing their job properly and are/have not. They cannot be allowed to get away with it!!!

[Rhia]

The barrister said exactly what I have said above. It gives them great difficulties (once they have discontinued) to start the same action again. He also said it is because - being professional lawyers - the courts have a high expectation of them getting it right the first time.

They would have to have a significant amount of new evidence for it to be considered - a rehashed DN doesn't count.

He then said the court would ask if I objected to this being re-opened, which of course I would and you would state the reason being that as professionals they should have produced the correct documentation at the time. It ain't going to happen.

 

BRW I have lost the barrister's email in my recent computer glitch and have asked him to re-send but I am sure he said they can't go around re-terminating agreements. Termination can only happen once.

I'll try and get this confirmed.

The reason i know this is I thought it was about to happen to me but it turned out to be an admin cock up from the DCA but we were ready to go to town on them.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Rhia

[pedross]

Thanks BRW & Rhia

 

It looks like you are both confirming the same thing as corn. They can do what they like but it will not be valid.

 

It also looks like your barrister has confirmed that it can only be terminated once Rhia which is really useful information.

 

In which case, Reggie, with the right advice should be able to appeal the judgement on the basis that the Judge was correct in stating that the default notice was invalid and should therefore have found in favour of the defendant. ( Or whatever the legal version is). Walshy needs to get onto finding out that default notice as I mentioned before the case.

 

Pedross

[Cornucopia]

Thanks BRW & Rhia

 

It looks like you are both confirming the same thing as corn. They can do what they like but it will not be valid.

 

It also looks like your barrister has confirmed that it can only be terminated once Rhia which is really useful information.

 

In which case, Reggie, with the right advice should be able to appeal the judgement on the basis that the Judge was correct in stating that the default notice was invalid and should therefore have found in favour of the defendant. ( Or whatever the legal version is). Walshy needs to get onto finding out that default notice as I mentioned before the case.

 

Pedross

 

Pedross, apologies for not replying to your original post to me more quickly! It seems that others have posted since and have answered as I would have done!

 

This is the problem isn't it? Most debtors wouldn't have a clue about the intricacies of a default notice or termination notice and would probably just accept the re-issue and not bring that particular point of law to the attention of the presiding Judge. When I attended Rhia's court case, it was shocking to hear the Judge basically say "well we can't have this, we'll be inundated"!!!! So, I do think they often rely on the debtors lack of knowledge to just dispose of a case as quickly as possible and make sure the creditor gets something by way of payment. Thanks to sites like this, the tide is turning. This is why it is SO important for Reggie to appeal because the defective default notice is a screw up by the claimant, they have been caught on the hop by the new regulations and the Judge really ought to know better.

 

I will be very interested to see how this pans out. Good luck Reggie.

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

[diddydicky]

Pedross, apologies for not replying to your original post to me more quickly! It seems that others have posted since and have answered as I would have done!

 

This is the problem isn't it? Most debtors wouldn't have a clue about the intricacies of a default notice or termination notice and would probably just accept the re-issue and not bring that particular point of law to the attention of the presiding Judge. When I attended Rhia's court case, it was shocking to hear the Judge basically say "well we can't have this, we'll be inundated"!!!! So, I do think they often rely on the debtors lack of knowledge to just dispose of a case as quickly as possible and make sure the creditor gets something by way of payment. Thanks to sites like this, the tide is turning. This is why it is SO important for Reggie to appeal because the defective default notice is a screw up by the claimant, they have been caught on the hop by the new regulations and the Judge really ought to know better.

 

I will be very interested to see how this pans out. Good luck Reggie.

 

Regards,

 

Corn x:)

 

that comment will be on his tape and that alone is grounds for an appeal i beleive (and i am not even legally qualified)!