American Express Charge Card

[sunnyskies1]

Hi All

Very nervous first timer but need your help.

Got myself into debt problems and i dont know what to do really.

Ive read at length many of your threads and to say they were helpfull is an understatement. I still cant beleive that there are other people out there with the same problems of nasty DCA s. I feel so sorry for the people who these **** prey on especially if they are vunerable. I hope you can help me with a question.

I have an american express charge card not one which you pay a bit of each month but one which you have to clear at the end of every month. Ive sent them the CCA letters received a reply from them they state that this card is exempt from the provisions of the consumer credit act 74. They have sent me my application form from 2004. They changed my account over 4 months ago to another account number but i never signed anything then. According to them it was a completley new account. Am trying my best with the rest of the sharks but dont know what to do with this.

Without this forums help we would all be stuffed:-|

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Sunnyskies1!

 

Firstly, welcome to CAG.

 

I regret that Charge Cards are not usually Regulated by the...

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

So many of the arguments on CAG relating to Credit Cards will not apply. Charge Cards and Credit Cards are two very different animals usually.

 

But, it can depend on the Charge Card Agreement, as some are partly-Regulated, and a handful are fully Regulated depending on how the negotiations were conducted and if they allowed, say, a Cash Advance facility and there was a provision to charge interest on that. That would potentially result in a Charge Card with some Credit Card like features, so a different Agreement would've been needed, i.e. did they get you to sign the right one?

 

Sadly, many of the benefits and protections offered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 do not then apply if the Charge Card is not Regulated by the Act (or even when partly-Regulated). Take a good look at your Agreement to see if you can tell if it is Regulated at all...and look for any Terms that say it might be if certain conditions applied.

 

Some Charge Card Agreements mention that they are not suitable if, say, the negotiations for the Card were conducted off the bank's property, by a bank employee and if that employee offered a Cash Advance facility. The bank should've then sent you a different Agreement. That is a long shot, although it's worth looking at the small Print just in case!

 

Please don't get your hopes up! Most Charge Cards are not likely to be Regulated by the above Act.

 

However, I'm no expert on Charge Cards, so the best I can suggest is that you need to trawl CAG looking for any Threads that discuss Charge Card issues.

 

Please don't just focus on Amex, look for any Threads that deal with Charge Cards, as the issues will probably be the same. The actual bank is less important when initially getting a feel for how to tackle the issues.

 

I think I saw that you mentioned in another Thread that you have an Amex Credit Card? If so, and if you need help with that, then it would be wise to start another Thread for the Amex Credit Card, and keep this Thread going for the Amex Charge Card.

 

I'll alert the Site Team, and see if this Thread can be moved from the Welcome Section and over to the CAG Amex Forum, and perhaps have the Title changed to:

 

American Express Charge Card

 

This is only a suggestion to help you get more advice generally, and hopefully specific advice to cover the issues relating to a Charge Card.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Trilby274]

Hi Sunnyskies and welcome also from me. The information you have given so far is a little bit sketchy. So first of all, which Amex Card have you got (there are a fair number of them, mostly with different terms)

 

When you applied, you needed to confirm the following:

 

 

• I am aged 18 or over
  
• I have a current UK bank or building society account
  
• I have an Annual Household Income of £20,000 (ie. your personal income plus partner's income)
  
• I have a permanent UK home address
  
• I have no County Court Judgements for non-payment of debt
  
• My company has been trading for more than a year (only if you are self-employed)
  

Were you able to confirm all the above?

 

Have you suddenly been made redundant or something? Or is it just that you overextended yourself and found yourself in deep s***.

 

Did they give you a reason for changing your account? Had you missed a couple of payments perhaps and they changed it to a credit card account? Although I doubt this would be the case as you seem to have an Amex credit card anyway.

 

Please post up the application form they sent you (remove any personal details) so that we can get a look at it.

 

Agree with Banker on everything he says. These cards are meant for people who do not like carrying around large amounts of cash and are easily able to pay them off every month. Your average Joe could easily fall foul if there was a sudden drop in income.

[sunnyskies1]

Hi Guys

God its nice to have people to speak to.

The Amex charge card was platinum American express card which did have a cash withdrawel facility. What they sent me regarding the CCA letter was my application form from 2004. What happened was that my date of pay changed so instead of just moving the account due date they stated that they had to open a new account, ie new credit check and issue a new card with new number on it. Regarding this agreement i did not sign anything for it. the new card arrived and the old account was closed. I asked this question when i sent the cca letter and they just seemed to ingnore that part of the question. They have not sent me my credit card agreement at all yet and again they ignored this question in thier reply. I am looking at what they sent me now and it is just my application form from november 2004. It just has my signature on it and the date. I was hoping that they might have omitted to making me sign another application form 34 months ago when they changed the account. And yes i have been stupid with money after a bad divorce, my kids live with me. I hate doing this but when you ask for help they treat you like a piece of dirt. I just dont know what to do now.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Sunnyskies1!

 

All you can do at the moment is gather all the evidence, and see if you can pick holes in their position.

 

The following Post from another Amex Charge Card Thread may be of interest:

 

American Express Charge Card See Post #4

 

Scarletpimpernel:

 

Rory's advice is, as always, spot on.

 

I'm also dealing with Amex over charge and credit card accounts. I CCA'd them and one of the documents they sent was an application form for an 'extended payment option' on the charge card, clearly marked 'regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'. Like all the other 'agreements' it's missing the prescribed terms and is wholly unenforceable.

 

It isn't entirely clear to me whether this converts the account from a charge card to a credit card - but I suggested this to Amex, and they've dropped their demands for immediate payment.

 

The key is to seek out anything that may turn the Charge Card into a Credit Card, and so fall under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Also seek out any flaws in their Documentation, such as them only having a Copy of the Agreement, instead of the actual thing, signed in ink by you.

 

Many banks elected to Scan and then Shred their Agreements, which was rather foolish of them. Amex are not good at keeping original documents.

 

There are many reasons why banks have lost the original copies, ranging from stupidity to dishonesty...

 

The stupid bankers have absolutely no idea what they have destroyed. But they now try to claim that what they once had was enforceable, producing a range of dubious Copies to try and support this claim.

 

The dishonest bankers know exactly what they have shredded because they know it was never enforceable. But they now try to claim that what they once had was enforceable, producing a range of dubious Copies to try and support this claim.

 

You may notice a certain similarity in the above! Telling if you have a stupid bank or a dishonest bank, is not easy, especially when all they present you with are dubious Copies of the alleged Agreement.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[sunnyskies1]

Hi Matey

Thanks for coming back to me this forum really does make a differnce to us all.

I am looking at the express application they sent me. It is a faxed of the copy they sent to me. Obviously this is not the original agreement. What iwas wondering was when they changed the account some 6 months ago to another account same platinum card but different account number i should have signed another agreement/application. My card did have a cash withdrawal facility. They have not sent me any agreement regarding my charge card so they are now in default presumably. Do you think it best writing to them again pointing this out.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello S1!

 

I think you need to avoid locking into issues that apply to Credit Cards until such time as you can be sure the Charge Card is a semi-Credit Card and so possibly Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

By that, I mean don't regard them as being in default of a Request, because if the Charge Card is not Regulated, then the s78 issues do not apply...because the Charge Card is not covered by s78 if the Agreement is not Regulated.

 

If you may now see the problem with blasted Charge Cards!

 

So, there's nothing to be gained by writing to tell them they are in default of a s78(1) Request, because all they'll do is write back and say the Agreement is not Regulated, what on earth are you talking about!

 

This is why I'm saying look long and hard at anything you have been sent, to see if you can tip the Charge Card into becoming a Credit Card, or at least being Partly-Regulated by the Act.

 

See ScarletPimpernel's Post above, as he spotted Credit Card like Terms, which pushed his Card from being a straight Charge Card and into Credit Card territory, and Amex backed off.

 

Sadly, I think the fact that they changed your Card and number won't matter, as there will probably have some clause in the Terms that allows them to upgrade/change/vary your facilities, and that may cover the ending of one Card and the substitution of another. They'll regard it as all being part of the same Agreement.

 

My card did have a cash withdrawal facility.

 

That's more like it, and so start looking at that feature for all you are worth. Find any and all Terms that relate to that, because it might just help you to push that Charge Card into being a Credit Card...

 

...if so, then lots of useful issues can be brought into play.

 

In summary, the main defence at the moment is the question of them having an Original Copy of the Agreement. That is covered by...

 

CPR PD 16 7.3

 

i.e. their requirement to produce an Original Copy of a Written Agreement in Court.

 

No Original, then any copies will come under the Hearsay evidence issues, so read up on...

 

Civil Evidence Act 1995

 

Original Agreement = Evidence

 

A copy Agreement = Hearsay evidence

 

The latter carries less weight as evidence, and for it to be taken seriously, they'll need some hard Evidence such as Witness Statements from people capable of actually being Witnesses to the Document's History to back up that the copy is genuine.

 

This may not win it for you, but it's all ammunition.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[sunnyskies1]

Cheers mate

Will do.

I dont think i have my original agreement been so long ago. What they have sent me is just an app form writing is so small cant read it i think an ant would have trouble even it would have to squint. Think i might write to ask for a true copy not a copy of the fax they sent to me, also i know the blue card is definatley a credit card and they have sent me nothing regarding that. They are so full of themselves.

Cheers buddy.

Will keep you updated hopefully between two of us we will crack em

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello S1!

 

an app form writing is so small cant read it i think an ant would have trouble even it would have to squint

 

If you can't read it, I think that may be covered by:

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)

 

See: Consumer Credit Act (1974) and related Regulations

 

That is PDF number 3 in Post #4 of the above Sticky Thread by Zootscoot.

 

The thing they send has to be legible but, again, I'm not certain if that covers Charge Cards, but I'd think it may well do.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited December 14, 2008 by banker_rhymes_with
Space removal

[Josie8]

Hello S1!

 

I think you need to avoid locking into issues that apply to Credit Cards until such time as you can be sure the Charge Card is a semi-Credit Card and so possibly Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

By that, I mean don't regard them as being in default of a Request, because if the Charge Card is not Regulated, then the s78 issues do not apply...because the Charge Card is not covered by s78 if the Agreement is not Regulated.

 

If you may now see the problem with blasted Charge Cards!

 

So, there's nothing to be gained by writing to tell them they are in default of a s78(1) Request, because all they'll do is write back and say the Agreement is not Regulated, what on earth are you talking about!

 

This is why I'm saying look long and hard at anything you have been sent, to see if you can tip the Charge Card into becoming a Credit Card, or at least being Partly-Regulated by the Act.

 

See ScarletPimpernel's Post above, as he spotted Credit Card like Terms, which pushed his Card from being a straight Charge Card and into Credit Card territory, and Amex backed off.

 

Sadly, I think the fact that they changed your Card and number won't matter, as there will probably have some clause in the Terms that allows them to upgrade/change/vary your facilities, and that may cover the ending of one Card and the substitution of another. They'll regard it as all being part of the same Agreement.

 

 

 

That's more like it, and so start looking at that feature for all you are worth. Find any and all Terms that relate to that, because it might just help you to push that Charge Card into being a Credit Card...

 

...if so, then lots of useful issues can be brought into play.

 

In summary, the main defence at the moment is the question of them having an Original Copy of the Agreement. That is covered by...

 

CPR PD 16 7.3

 

i.e. their requirement to produce an Original Copy of a Written Agreement in Court.

 

No Original, then any copies will come under the Hearsay evidence issues, so read up on...

 

Civil Evidence Act 1995

 

Original Agreement = Evidence

 

A copy Agreement = Hearsay evidence

 

The latter carries less weight as evidence, and for it to be taken seriously, they'll need some hard Evidence such as Witness Statements from people capable of actually being Witnesses to the Document's History to back up that the copy is genuine.

 

This may not win it for you, but it's all ammunition.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW[/quote

 

Looking hopeful that it should be regulated agreement.

 

Doesn't matter what they've done with new account - it stems back to original application

[americandistress]

I have an Amex centurion card - it has a cash facility. The agreement in no way suggests that it is regulated by the CCA. But is it?

[sunnyskies1]

Hi all

Have sent a reply to AMEX rotweillers and stated that i had a cash facility and think that it might come under CCA rules. Waiting for their reply. Feel as though they will go all the way. They DID NOT answer my question about changing my accounts with no knew signature ect.

Will keep you all updated.

S1

[americandistress]

Under 7.7 of the the Banking Code guidelines for subscribers, they can't close, or threaten to close your ac if you have a valid complaint.

I have, and they did!

And I do not believe you have to supply them with any info they request eg bank statements etc. B Code says same and no mention of it in Amex ts and cs. In fact they soecify that they require your aproval in section 14. Complain and don't supply and see where it takes u. I could have writen better ts and cs than them.

They are fully committed to the Banking Code which is just as robust as the CCA so read these rules comprehensively.

Be great to hear their response - is it because the cash facility charges interest? I would be pleased to undertsand your rationale so I can investigate.

[sunnyskies1]

Hi Matey

What happened was that i asked my payment date to change they said that they could not do it other than to set up a new account for me. They did new card and new card number ect also appeared on my accounts as new account, i did not sign anything they just changed it. The reason for mentioning the cash facility was that on a thread they mentioned if it had a cash facility it might have some cca rules. I have been with them for over 20 years and they have treated me like S***, sorry for the bad language. Am waiting to hear from them in regards to my last letter.

This site has got to be the best out there there are so many people willing to help each other. You talk to these vultures and try and be honest and up front with them asking for their help and they treat you with utter contempt.

I am now going to treat them the way that they have treated me, plus i have the law on my side, and also the guys and gals on this forum

S1

[americandistress]

Is the issue that they charged you again? Then I would look at banking Code which they are fully committed to (see their site)

And as below - if this is the case then there are several would apply for u

 

As you should know, the Banking Code states that:

When interpreting 'fairly' subscribers should have regard to The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, the Consumer Protections from Unfair Trading Regulations 2007 and to the Data Protection Principles set out in Part 1 Schedule 1 to the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

The ts and cs should be fair in substance to reflect the requirements.

I see that Amex have already been in breach of this before and censured by the OFT:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/consumer-regulations/traders/2195/1/

 

Under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations a department of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) known as the Unfair Contract Terms Unit deals with unfair terms in consumer contracts.

Members of the public can notify the OFT if they consider a contract term to be unfair. The OFT can try and negotiate changes to the contract if it is unfair. Or take out a court injunction to stop the contract term being used in the future.

Examples of the types of contract terms the OFT will consider to be unfair include:

2. No liability by the company / business for breaches of contract.

4. Restricting the level and type of liability.

6. Binding you to the contract when the company / business is at fault.

8. Restricting your rights and remedies.

11. Contracts which allow the company / business not to perform obligations at all

12. Binding you to the contract while allowing the company / business to offer no service at all.

15. Unequal cancellation rights. 16. Making termination subject to unreasonable conditions

17. Allowing termination of the contract without notice.

 

18. Binding you to hidden terms or variation clauses

19. Allowing changes in what is supplied, or price variation without notification to you.

20. Allowing the company / business to impose undue financial burdens.

[americandistress]

FOR BANKER RHYMES WITH

What is it about a cash facility that would it credit card like eg int charged or fee? And what part of the cca does this relate to - and if a charge card with a ash facility got suspended without notice, pending further info, what difference would CCA make?

[sunnyskies1]

Hi Again

I wish they had i would not be so embarrassed. I have just got money problems and when i asked for thier help they did not care that i had been with them for such a long time. They kept messing things up giving me apologies and more reward points more apologies in the end i had had enough.

So i started a thread to check if my agreement was enforceable. The way they treated me and i suspect many others, was disgusting having had god knows how much money of me over the years i felt that they needed to show more respect to people. As i say i am in financial difficulties and they just do not care

 

S1

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello americandistress!

 

FOR BANKER RHYMES WITH

What is it about a cash facility that would it credit card like eg int charged or fee? And what part of the cca does this relate to - and if a charge card with a ash facility got suspended without notice, pending further info, what difference would CCA make?

 

I regret it was always a long shot, the point I was making was that some bankers allow their Charge Cards to be partly-Regulated, and sometimes fully-Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The key is to examine their Terms and Conditions, to see if they have mentioned the Act at all.

 

IOW, it's not having a Cash Advance Facility that does it, but the combination of having that Facility and having it also mentioned in their Terms that the Facility is covered by the Act.

 

For example, if they allow a Cash Advance and allow you to delay Payment, and in that case they charge Interest, then the Facility starts to look more like a Credit Card. If they have also mentioned this Facility is partly-Regulated, then you may have some leverage to play with.

 

Another issue could be how they handle any defaults on your part. If they send you a Default Notice and state that was issued in compliance with Section 87(1) of the Act, then it seems to me that they are saying the Charge Card is at least partly-Regulated...otherwise why are they quoting the Act at you?

 

If a Charge Card is unregulated, then Section 87(1) has no relevance. Thus, if they send you a s87(1) Default Notice, that could be your first step towards suggesting the Agreement must be at least partly-Regulated.

 

I have one (non-Amex) Charge Card where the negotiations and Agreement were presented to me at my own Address. The Card Facility was offered to me by an employee of the bank in question. During the discussion, I happened to ask about using the Card whilst away, and if it could also let me draw Cash out, if needed. The employee said yes, to which I stated that could be useful. The employee then left the Application Form with me. I duly completed and Signed that, and posted it back to the bank.

 

The Agreement Signature Box did say that it was partly-Regulated by the Act, probably so that they could use s87(1) for Default Notice and Termination purposes.

 

However, when I later had a dispute with the bank, I checked many Agreements, and found the Charge Card Agreement included a block of text that said in the event that negotiations were conducted off the banks property, by a bank employee, and a Cash Advance Facility was offered, then a different fully Regulated Agreement was necessary. The Agreement the banker had left me to sign was not that.

 

I therefore signed the wrong Agreement. I'm now asking the bank for the correct Agreement, which they are having trouble finding, because I was never presented with the correct Agreement to Sign in the first place.

 

That was my point, i.e. you need to examine your own Agreement in detail, and see if you can find any similar issues that could, potentially, turn an unregulated Charge Card Agreement into a partly or fully Regulated Agreement.

 

If fully Regulated, then all of the benefits and protections of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 would apply. That would still mean you would need to find issues to help you, but you could then follow the same logic and CAG arguments that apply to Regulated Credit Card Agreements.

 

Sadly, I must stress this was always a long shot, but it was worth mentioning. Most Charge Cards are totally unregulated by the Act, some are partly-Regulated and a very small handful are fully Regulated.

 

If your Charge Card is unregulated, then you need to switch focus towards other issues, as the Act will not be of much use I regret.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[alangee]

Sunnyskies, were you offered a Flex Account facility within your Platinum charge card? If so. and if you used it, this comes under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

[sunnyskies1]

Sunnyskies, were you offered a Flex Account facility within your Platinum charge card? If so. and if you used it, this comes under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Hi

I dont think i was offered a flex account facility i had to pay the full balance of each month. I could withdraw cash during the month though. They sent me a copy of my application form and that is all. They have not given me anything on my blue credit card. I dont know and i might be wrong but when you start to question them they dont seem to know what to do. I am really worried about them as i have a friend who is further down the road than myself and they have been really nasty to her passing the debt onto a DCA

 

S1

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello S1!

 

I am really worried about them as i have a friend who is further down the road than myself and they have been really nasty to her passing the debt onto a DCA

 

They are not nice, but they assume everyone is oblivious about their own Rights.

 

You have CAG now, and I urge you to point your friend this way too.

 

Nothing in life is ever easy, but there are major advantages when people gather together to act against a bully.

 

Amex is a known bully.

 

Like all bullies, they are not so strong when they find people see through them.

 

Like all bullies, they're not so tough and can be defeated.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[k1mmie]

How does a corporate charge card stand? Hubby had to take one with a company that were supposed to reimburse expenses (laugh). Got left with more than the bill. Anyway, he can remember the card coming to the company and just signing the card as an acceptance (but he could be wrong as it was about 10 years ago). Was paying it off then couldnt afford to and had to stop. Brachers got a charge back in 2002. I sent them a SAR as I thought it would be interesting to see the charges incurred and maybe we could reduce the amount outstanding that way. They have never replied. This is not like Brachers. If they knew they had the information then surely they would have had a come back, but we have heard nothing. Anyone understand how this works??? Paid off thousands.....

[Hestia]

Hi, I know you're thread was a long time ago but what happened in the end?