Barclaycard and AP markers

[mahharg]

Hi I haven't posted for some time now (still many a night spent reading). I have a problem which i would appreciate any guidance on if possible.

I have been on a DMP since 2004 and should be debt free in 19 months time.

There are a good few defaults on all 3 CRA's which all expire/drop off in 2010 just when I am debt free brill!.

 

The problem is that Barclays and Argos haven't defaulted me they have just put on my file that I am on a "Debt Management arrangement" or an "Arrangement to pay in force".

 

The problem with these is that they will remain on my file for 6 years from when I finally settle and Barclays won't be settled untill 2010 (Argos in a couple of months).

This will mean that Barclay's bad credit entry will remain on my file untill 2016 a whole 12 years and Argos 2014 a whole 10 years since I started the DMP in 2004.

 

Surley this is morally wrong if not legally.

Is there anything that can be done even if I can plead for their better nature perhaps (not holding breath) or maybe The Information Commissioner can help.

 

 

There are charges which I am holding out for maybe as defence at a later date but the charges are still less than what I owe.

I have charges to claim from Argos which is def more than I owe now but I don't want to play all my cards and then rock the boat just yet.

 

I am thinking looking for a mortgage in 2010/11 credit crunch pending but thanks to this won't hold out much hope.

If I wait till 2016 I will be too old so will have to forget it hence no security for my children for the future, penalised for 13 years all because of a job loss way back in 2003. Sometimes life stinks

. I would get less time in prison for much worse these days.

Oh how I wish they had defaulted me 4 years ago.

[SharpmanTF1]

who says it stays on there for that long?

[mahharg]

CRA When an account is settled it remains on file for a further six years. However a default is removed six years after issue. Have I missed something?

[tinkerbell20]

It is unfair but you would have been better off if they had defaulted you at the time.

[mahharg]

Hi

 

I've been trawling the net for answers/advice and come across the following links from the Information Commisioner's Office website. It is entitled Data Protection Technical Guidance - Filing defaults with credit reference angencies.

 

HTML version

D R A F T

 

PDF Version

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/detailed_specialist_guides/default_tgn_version_v3%20%20doc.pdf

 

I would like people's opinions on the following which affects may help in my situation.

 

Just to put you in the picture I have been on a DMP with CCCS for 4 years now and have been paying regular payments to numerous creditors and to this particular bank more than £90 per month so a bit more than a token payment in my view.

 

section 21 states:

21 An ‘arrangement to pay’

 

This involves a temporary, short-term (up to six months) arrangement

where the lender agrees to accept reduced payments.

 

The bank on my Credit file Ba...ays have had me on an "Arrangement to pay" for about 4 years now.

 

The original payment terms will still be shown on the credit reference

file and arrears will accrue which will be shown on the monthly status

record.

Well being a credit card I'm not sure if there were original payment terms.

 

The account will be marked by an ‘arrangement to pay’ marker

(which distinguishes the account from one where the customer has

behaved less responsibly).

I think this means not a default.

 

Where such an ‘arrangement to pay’ breaks down, a default may be

filed when the total value of the arrears is equivalent to three monthly

payments under the original terms. However, this should not result in the customer being placed in a worse position than someone who has made no effort to pay whatsoever.

As I mentioned earlier I have been paying regular payments.

 

If a customer fails to return to contractual payments after an

‘arrangement to pay’ has expired, then the lender can file a default

immediately, as long as this would not place the customer in a worse

position than they would have been in, had they not made the

arrangement.

. I should have then been defaulted after the first 6 months of the default (3 and half years ago).

 

 

Section 22 states:

Debt management programmes

 

22 A debt management programme (DMP) is when a customer enters a

programme of repayment of all or a number of their credit agreements

that has been negotiated by a third party, ‘not for profit’, debt adviser. By

entering the programme the customer shows that he is acting more

responsibly than someone who makes no effort whatsoever to pay what

is due. However, in financial terms, DMPs include markedly different

situations. Repayments vary from a level acceptable to a lender to those

where the sums repaid are only nominal amounts which a socially

responsible lender agrees to accept because it recognises that in

entering a debt management programme the customer is trying to act

responsibly but cannot afford to pay more, and this is the only way to

recoup any of the debt.

3

Consequently the record filed on a credit

reference file should discriminate between these situations so that an

adequate reflection of the financial standing of these customers can be

shared with other lenders.

According to the Information Commisioner I am acting more

responsibly than someone who makes no effort whatsoever to pay what

is due.

 

Now for your opinions please.

 

 

If I am reading this correctly am I right to think that I could get this entry removed on the following reasons/breaches.

 

1) The Bank had an arrangement to pay for more than 4 years.

This should have only be a Temporary short term (6months).

 

2) The original payment terms were never shown on the file whilst the "Arrangement to pay" was in force.

 

3) The Information Commisioner states a few times that I should not be left in no worse state than someone who makes no effort whatsoever to pay. Could I not argue that had I not made any effort to pay I would have been defaulted in 2004 hence removed from my file in 2010. Because I have acted responsibly, when I finish clearing my debt in 2010 this "adverse" entry on my file will remain on my file for a further 6 years to 2016 thus restricting my chances of obtaining credit. This in itself puts me in a "worse state than someone who makes no effort to pay whatsoever".

 

I think I have them by the short & curlies but will wait until all is paid off because I have a few defaults (rightly so) untill 2010 anyway so this won't make any odds yet.

 

Lastly

Can this guide be used as a defence in a court of law as a last resort?

 

All opinions will be appreciated.

[mahharg]

Hi all

 

I have noticed a few threads now regarding this confusing Arrangement to pay so thought I would open this thread again in the hope that someone can advise me as to the best course of action.

 

I am now about 5 months from paying my Barclaycard off now - still under an arrangement (for past 4-5 years) to pay via CCCS. They are however charging 12% interest which is annoying.

 

I have been reading on other threads along the lines of if I come of the arrangement to pay and keep the account active that the AP markers on my credit file will drop off and within about 3 years they will all be gone.

 

1) Could I still make payments via CCCS as long as it meets the minimum payment?

 

2) Will Barclaycard actually allow me to keep the account active ie if I start making normal payments is the account actually still open thus me getting a credit card with a limit of the current balance owed? (sounds a bit silly I know)

 

3) I did something similar with Argos and after a pleading letter was given an Argos card with £100 credit limit just after I made my final payment.

 

I would appreciate any advise/fdeedback regaing my previous posts.

 

Additionally Barclaycard have been fluctuating the interest on my Arrangement to pay with no letters/notices just a statement showing that months interest. Could this have a bearing on this situation?

[funky_fiddler]

I think the arrangement gets removed once you have paid it off and the account gets marked as settled?? I've just paid my barclaycard off after being on arrangement for a year? I don't know though I'm waiting to find out

 

[dundeelaw]

The above post is correct. Once you have settled your account under the AP or DMP, your file will be updated to show as settled.

 

It will remain for 6 years after that if the account is closed. The AP DMP instructor should disappear from it. If any AP have been applied on a monthly basis (some do some dont), then it would not matter if the account was active or not.

 

You would not be allowed to use cccs to pay minimum monthly payments as no debt would exist after the final payment and they would be unable to help you. When you near the end of a DMP, you will be contacted by cccs or you can contact them and they will inform you that the DMP is complete and you are debt free.

 

If you have been making agreed payments for more than 6 months, it is unlikely they will default the account near the end of the DMP as they would be too late under the Information Comissionner's Guidlines.

 

Remember it is good having settled accounts on your credit file so you can show that you have met payments in the past (as long as it has not defaulted). A Settled Account with AP markers is better than keeping it active as you would still have available credit which may make any new lender weary of lending you more.

 

If you had no accounts on your credit file, you would find it even harder to get any sort of credit because lenders would not be able to know about your past payments to creditors.

 

Once it has been paid off, write to Barclays and close the account. Once that is done, you can start appplying for credit again.

[mahharg]

Hi Dundeelaw

 

I haven't checked here for some time hence I have only just read your post which is very informative thank you.

Unfortunately I have already taken a path.

 

I have come off the Arrangement to pay and have started to pay the minmum payment as per statement.

I have also come off of CCCS because I wouldn't of been allowed to do this otherwise and it is now the last creditor of 10.

 

I owed in total about £34k to all 10 creditors but now it is just £800 to Barclaycard.

All the other creditors had defaulted me around 5 years ago so next year the defaults will be gone from my credit file.

 

I done this because (I assume) although after an arrangement to pay will be marked as settled when it is paid off my previous month's entries will still continue to show AP until 6 years have elapsed.

 

If I do it the way way I am now for about 2 or 3 years until it is paid off then close the account I've been informed by Barclaycard that it will be closed once all payments have been made. My previous month's entries will show as payments were made on time.

 

Although I am not able to get a credit card for this account I have been informed that my credit limit will show £4000 on my credit file. This to any lender will show as a normal account with normal payments on time. One hitch though is that Call Credit show 6 years worth of monthly payments. The alternative would be to pay it all off as quickly as possible and wait for 6 years to elapse.

 

The thing about my arrangement to pay is that after the initial payments which were less than the contracted minimum payments I was ending up for quite a while paying a lot more than I should of? I was paying over £100 pound a month via CCCS but my contracted minmum payment should have been less than £50 (now £20) so why the heck did they have me on this arrangement to pay during that time?

 

I would really appreciate any comments/advise because all the above are only assumptions.

[master woody]

Mahharg

 

Nice thread, i'm in the same boat. If i was a bit more savy when my debt crisis started 6 years ago i would of refused to make payments to creditors until they defualted me!

 

I think and i may be wrong but MBNA told me when the account was finished they would remove all payment history and mark the account as SD which is good for credit rating....

 

I'll watch this thread with intrest...

[mahharg]

Thank You Master Woody.

 

I agree with you. It does seem wrong though that in hindsight we would have been better off defaulting way back. I would have had no interest to pay and I would have paid Barclaycard off within the next couple of months and the default would have been removed later this year or earlier next.

 

It seems bang out of order that we seem to be worse off simply by attempting to be responsible and come to a payment arrangement. Something which should be looked into.

[WhyBother?]

Hi Guys

 

Must admit I'm pretty gutted too! I entered into a DMP and paid everything off, now worries. Most of my creditors defaulted me early on, so they've dropped off my credit history. However Cahoot defaulted me in the month prior to the completion of my DMP - even though they were paid regularly, full debt paid-off and regular payments made - whilst MBNA stuck Arrangement To Pay on my record for the full 4 years of paying. Again, even though the full balance was paid I'm stuck with something on my head until 2014 where I'd have been better off being totally irresponsible and refusing to pay anything back!

 

I wrote to MBNA but they aren't shifting, claiming that they informed me of the Arrangement to Pay at the time of agreement and that this will remain on my records for 6 years even though I settled. I'm pretty sure I didn't receive any such information but what can you do?

 

Cahoot, on the other hand, have purely ignored my correspondance.

 

You wouldn't mind so much but you hear so many stories of people who simply couldn't be bothered to clean up their own messes and got off scott-free. I decided to man-up, struggled for years, paid off all my debts and am in no better a position than if I'd been bankrupted!

[craigers]

whybother, go to the ico regarding cahoot. this is clearly vexatious. if cahoot had a problem with your dmp then they should've defaulted you 3-6 months after your dmp started.

[mahharg]

I agree with Craigers. Cahoot accepted your DMP so obviously you had come to an agreement with them and if you had stuck to that agreement then they shouldn't have defaulted you so close to settling . Whether they are allowed to or not I don't know but it is certainly seems wrong. Did they send you official "notice of Default"?.

 

Regarding MBNA and "Arrangement to pay" I think it is a disgrace even though as I posted in post 6.

 

Data Protection Technical Guidance - Filing defaults with credit reference angencies.

 

HTML version

D R A F T

 

PDF Version

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...3%20%20doc.pdf

 

section 21 states:

21 An ‘arrangement to pay’

 

This involves a temporary, short-term (up to six months) arrangement

where the lender agrees to accept reduced payments.

Were you ever back up to date with your payments whilst they had you on AP during your 4 years? If so the information could maybe be challenged as incorrect.

I have to admit I haven't ventured on this thread for a while now. I may be a little rusty so take my advice with a pinch of salt.

 

I wish you luck. Please stay on my thread it is related and I would like to see what your outcome is.

[WhyBother?]

Thanks to both of you for the advice...I will take you both up on it!

 

With regards to Cahoot, I received no notice whatsoever. The first I knew of the default is when I checked Credit Expert this summer. I was bemused to say the very least...

 

As for MBNA, I was totally paid up my account satisfied and now closed. I just find it highly confusing to see that people who have IVAs or even Bankrupt pasts might actually been seen as more credit-worthy than someone who did the right thing.

 

i suppose everyone's situation is different and eveyone has the right to a clean slate but I'll be haunted by a debt and regarded with suspicion for 10 years rather than the 6 that everyone else has. It just seems like common sense does not apply....

[LK85]

Hi,

 

Sorry, i just wondered if anyone had had any success asking the credit companies to re-date any defaults they applied year after agreeing to an arrangment to pay?

[mahharg]

Hi All

 

I hope I'm in the correct thread.

 

I'm looking for opinions to the situation I am now in. Sometime ago I started a thread which attracted some debate.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?165620-Help-Arrangement-to-pay-on-file-means-adverse-credit-for-10-years-help

 

This thread relates to the one above

 

I'm now about to have a problem with my Barclayloan repayments.

 

I have recently had a relationship breakup (Ex was not on the agreement but both our monies covered the repayments).

 

I've worked out that there is no way I could pay this Barclayloan on it's current terms.

Currently they have agreed to take £10 a month for Dec 2012 and Jan 2013.

I am to make contact again after Jan 2013.

 

The thing is I feel that if I did decide to have an arrangement to pay with them I'm guessing it will take about 3 years to clear

so after 3 years the AP markers will remain on my file for a further 6 years,.

This means I'm looking at the year 2022 before it is removed from my file.

 

Now if I was to default as quickly as possible then come to an arrangement and it still takes about 3 years to clear,

The default would remain on my file for 6 years FROM the Default date. This means I am looking at the year 2019 before it is removed.

 

On this basis I want Barclayloan to default me before I come to an agreement.

I have to be careful though because I have an overdraft with them which I can't clear yet.

 

Barclayloan have mentioned that it may be possible to set up a new loan agreement

but I have read somewhere that the loan would still be marked as a "Re-arranged loan".

Not much different to an Arrangement to pay really.

 

What do you think?

Any suggestions on how to go about this would be greatly appreciated. .

 

 

All in all the whole AP situation seems to puts people in a worse situation than anybody who defaults.

An AP whichever way you look at it is a negative mark telling creditors that you can't keep up with contractual payments,

just like a default yet the default drops of your Credit file sooner.

 

Default 6 years from default date.

 

AP marker 6 years from time settled/cleared.

 

In other words someone who is trying to clear a debt with a creditor could ultimately be worse off than someone who makes no attempt to pay whatsoever.

 

There is a flaw to this and should not be allowed.

Edited December 29, 2012 by mahharg

[huggy41]

this is why i told Halifax to go play on the motorway .

 

i now have them singing my tune ie. i told them that when the place the default on my file i will then divide what i owe them by 72 and that is what they will be getting each month so the last payment is on the 6th year

[mahharg]

Just to mention Huggy41. I do believe that a default is removed from you credit file after 6 years whether or not the balance is cleared so it will still drop off even if you still had an outstanding balance. They can't then place anything on file regarding this defaulted account.

 

Someone please confirm or deny this.

Edited December 29, 2012 by mahharg

[cerberusalert]

Someone please confirm or deny this.

That's correct.

[jboyd83]

Mahharg I do hope I'm not totally hijacking but your initial thread mentioned above and this one have both been very informative to me and Im so glad I saw it before I rushed into a DMP. Can a creditor take you to court/CCJ if you wait for them to default you then make token payments for those 6 years? Does this mean the debt is also unenforceable once it has 'dropped off' the credit file?

Thanks

Edited December 29, 2012 by jboyd83
sp

[mahharg]

Hi Jboyd83

 

I am only talking about unsecured loans (unsure about secured).

 

A default notice is the step that creditors have to take before taking court action.

 

Very unlikely that Creditors would take court action, if you make them a reasonable offer

because they are very well aware that the courts would probably offer them less for wasting the courts time.

 

As far as I am aware the debt would remain payable.

 

It simply can't be reported on a credit file after the default notice.

 

On that basis I would assume that if you simply stopped paying them, they could claim in the courts.

 

However if they have to issue a default before court action I'm not sure if the original default would be valid in a court of law even though 6 years

have passed because my thinking is that a new default cannot be issued.

 

I'm now confused on this bit help!

[jboyd83]

Well, none of our debts are secured as we dont own our property or a car (we use good old mother in laws car!) Our debts are catalogues, credit cards etc. Im sure I read somewhere that they cant chase or enforce a debt after the 6 years has passed but not certain as Im a bit of a newbie to the ins and outs....hopefully we will get someone who knows their stuff to save the day

Thanks Mahharg

[mahharg]

The only law I am aware of is the one where which basically is a debt becomes unenforceable if no contact is made by the Creditor/no admittance of the debt is acknowledged by the debtor in the previous 6 years.

[jboyd83]

Ahhhhh....maybe this is what I'm recalling then....OH BAUBLES!!! (as my boy would say)