LTSB Antics guidance

[larssonn]

Have been a busy boy lately and have just got round to catching up with the posts that are relvevant to me. Anyway, after looking around the LTSB posts, it seems that the order of the day is for LTSB to drag it out and appear for court

 

The questions I have are:

 

1. Do they have something up their sleeve or are they bluffing?

2. If the calculations are incorrect, such as adding interest instead of leaving out, will this get it thrown out of court or will there be allowance to correct?

3. Should you take in the T&C's to court and is there anything else required apart from a strong heart?

4. By going to court, can they 'force' you to not claim the other chunks of £750 claims?

5. IS there any other words from people who have been through this that may calm me down?!

 

The law is a complex thing and I dont want them to get the better of me with a technicality. After reading that they ask me to prove the charges are unfair, surely it is the bank's responsibility to prove that they aren't unfair. I may be due to go to court at the start of next month and am beginning to get anxious that I may get shot down due to my inexperience.

 

Respect to all who are strong enough to take the banks on and a big respect for all the contributions from the experts who help us acheive what we cant acheive on our own

[reload]

1) Bluffing.

2) There is allowance to correct it. If/WHEN Lloyds send you a settlement offer, they will likely correct it themselves.

3) It's advisable to, yes. You may want to have a look at some previous cases and use them as evidence, and likewise get a copy of things like the Peter Mcnamara interview.

4) In England at least, claims via the Small Claims Court cannot be used to set a precedent. I can't say for sure about Scotland - but I believe the same applies.

5) Personally, I got my settlement offer of £2703.11 through before I had to file the Allocation Questionnaire. They're still dragging their heels over refunding it, but I should have it soon - and will be sending 5% through to this site as soon as it lands in my account

 

You are correct in that it's the bank's responsibility to prove the charges are fair - which they cannot do within a court of law, as we all know their costs are miniscule compared to the amounts they take. Which is why, of course, they settle out of court in every case

 

Have you received your Allocation Questionnaire yet, larsson?

[larssonn]

Thanks for the pointers, i feel a bit better now. I have had no AQ yet but I am due to call the court on 8th August to see if LTSB have replied. Where is the Peter McNamara interview? Is this a transcript or a video file? I must have missed that one. Also, where do you get info on past cases?

 

Sorry for not having a clue and thanks for the help.

[larssonn]

I received a letter from the LTSB Credit Operations and Support section saying that they intend to defend on the following grounds :

 

The fees that you seek are properly incorporated into your contract with the bank; and

 

By making payments (whether by cheque, debit card or any other means) from your account where you have insufficient funds to cover them, you are making a request to the Bank for an increased overdraft, which the Bank may meet or decline. If it meets your request, you must pay the necessary charges. The issue of penalties only arises as a matter of law where there has been a breach of contract, and there is no breach of contract here.

 

They then want me to make contact with the local branch manager to review my account. They also want me to return my '3 in 1' card (which was taken from me a year ago) and my cheque book.

 

What step should be taken next? The calling date is just over a week away and I'm a bit anxious that they will try to use their solicitor's experience to wangle out of this. Still feeling confident though although i will be hyperventilating on the day!

 

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[Janet-M]

This is called 'cloaking' and is well known within the courts.Do not agree to a meeting state that you are not prepared to attend a review whilst this claim is ongoing but say that you are willing to attend an account review when this claim is settled.

 

Read my thread ( link in my signature) and the other long threads that have been settled .

[larssonn]

I received a letter today from the bank marked 'Without Prejudice' saying that although they do not accept my claim, they are willing to give me my money back - although not the full amount. They also want me to do an account review and waive my right to claim in future. This in not acceptable to me and after reading other LTSB posts, this is very similar in a lot of cases.

 

I am wanting to be very careful in my wording telling them that the full amount and nothing less is acceptable so any advice much appreciated. Also, should I agree to an account review (after conclusion of the claim)?

 

Note fo MJ: Sorry MJ for PMing you. My questions would be better in the public domain to help all. I realised this after I sent it. If its not of a personal and private nature, best to let all benefit!

[freebird]

My gut feeling is telling me that you should stick out for the full amount but I'm a novice , who's learning pretty quickly that we musn't give in..I'm watching your thread with interest, mine that is....not the 8% that I'm dreaming about after doing that spreadsheet..lol....

good luck mate

and thanks for sharing your case with us

Freebird x

[Janet-M]

I received a letter today from the bank marked 'Without Prejudice' saying that although they do not accept my claim, they are willing to give me my money back - although not the full amount. They also want me to do an account review and waive my right to claim in future. This in not acceptable to me and after reading other LTSB posts, this is very similar in a lot of cases.

 

I am wanting to be very careful in my wording telling them that the full amount and nothing less is acceptable so any advice much appreciated. Also, should I agree to an account review (after conclusion of the claim)?

 

Note fo MJ: Sorry MJ for PMing you. My questions would be better in the public domain to help all. I realised this after I sent it. If its not of a personal and private nature, best to let all benefit!

I would send a short and sweet letter saying ..I do not accept your offer only a full unconditional offer of settlement will result in me withdrawing my claim .I am prepared to have an account review but not while this claim is ongoing .. stay in charge of your claim and do not let them dictate to you just remember it is them that do not want this to go into court .

 

Take a read of my thread ( link in my signature )where they ended up making me 4 different offers to settle said numerous times it was their final offer and then panicked and sent a solicitors cheque out to me within 24 hours

 

No problem about the PM but not replying is in everyones best interest as I explained

[larssonn]

Hi all again.

 

Sent an email last night in response to the bank's letter regarding their 'deal' which was not acceptable to me. They acknowledged the amount but not the interest and asked me to comply with their terms! I thought I was claiming against them and not the other way round?! Anyway, I sent the email and a reply arrived today. This acknowledged both the correct amount and interest BUT STILL they want me to agree to terms that basically waive any right to future claims. They also said ' if you are unable to conduct your account in accordance with the Terms and Conditions, then you should consider making alternative Banking arrangements elsewhere '.

 

I certainly dont want to surrender an option to claim in the future. I will be sending an email back stating that but would like a help with the wording, if anyone can spare a moment or two? In actual fact, I dont want to comply with ANY of the conditions, so am I pushing it?

[SurlyBonds]

Larsson, my advice is don't give up. I am up against LTSB too, and they've tried exactly the same "no breach of contract" bull with me.

 

State quite clearly that whilst there is a contract in place stating the bank's Terms and Conditions, the contract is still, ultimately, subject to English Law - the final jurisdiction and authority in this country. As such, the bank cannot arbitrarily decide whether a term in a contract is lawful and you will follow the OFT's ruling that such matters must be decided in the Courts if they cannot be agreed. State that you presume that they are also happy to follow the OFT's ruling and will be willing to subject any potential future issues of this nature to abitration via the Courts as defined in English Law, if the two sides cannot agree.

 

Also, remind them of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations, Schedule 2, clauses:

(b) inappropriately excluding or limiting the legal rights of the consumer vis-à-vis the seller or supplier or another party in the event of total or partial non-performance or inadequate performance by the seller or supplier of any of the contractual obligations, including the option of offsetting a debt owed to the seller or supplier against any claim which the consumer may have against him

© making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realisation depends on his own will alone;

(g) enabling the seller or supplier to terminate a contract of indeterminate duration without reasonable notice except where there are serious grounds for doing so;

(m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract;

(o) obliging the consumer to fulfil all his obligations where the seller or supplier does not perform his;

 

Remind them, in particular, of clause g) and that you consider any threat to close the account as contrary to the Banking Code and is deemed a serious breach of contractual law.

 

In essence, they cannot force you to "comply with their terms" - a contract is between two parties - it is not one sided, or shouldn't be.

 

Ask them if they are clear on clause b) above, and whether they consider that their insistence for you to comply with their one-sided contract is compatible with that clause.

 

Finally, they are trying to change your contract mid-term, and they have to have your agreement to change the Terms before they become enforceable. So, DON'T agree anything - just stand your ground.

 

I have had all my credit card suppliers send me revised Ts&Cs in light of the OFT ruling and they have all stated that the charges will be £12. I have written back to all of them stating that the OFT ruling was that £12 was not the new magical figure that they were allowed to get away with, and well they know it. I have told them all that any charges would have to be agreed before being applied and if we still couldn't agree then they would have to ask the Court to decide what was fair. As such, I would not be accepting [various clauses] in their new terms, and I had indicated these in the copy enclosed and annotated accordingly.

 

Result?

One threatened to close my account - I gave them the above and then they stopped being silly.

One wrote back saying that they would not accept my "theories", to which I replied that they were not, actually, theories and would they like me to provide a source when they might to purchase a copy of the said legislation. I haven't heard back since.

The last one wrote back saying that they had noted my comments and would I be happy for me to speak to their "legal department to clarify some apparent oversights in [my] argument". When they did speak to me, I ran them around in circles and they gave up. I haven't heard from them since.

 

The other killer is to also send them a proposed schedule of charges if they fail to perform their side of the contract and ask if they are happy with such. I listed various things like:

a) not corresponding within the timescales defined in the Banking Code

b) failing to call me back at pre-arranged times

c) unduly lengthy delays in reissuing PIN codes resulting in loss of card use

d) failing to act upon instructions to place goods and services "in dispute"

etc.

and priced them all £12, but stated that I was happy for legal direction in the event of non-agreement.

 

Although this was slightly tongue-in-cheek, the point was made - namely that they can't have it all their own way, and the UTCCRs state quite clearly that they can't impose one set of rules that the other party to the contract cannot also apply.

 

The other golden rule is to send EVERYTHING via Recorded Delivery and fax it where you can and keep the fax transmission journals and file it. It may sound a pain, but with all this going on at the moment, there is no better argument than hard paper evidence with signatures on it, and proof that they got it.

 

They are just corporate bullies and, unfortunately, they have had their own way for far too long. They are now finding it very hard to adjust to the fact that more and more people now know their rights, or can find them out via places such as this. Instead of playing by the rules (i.e. The Law), they are just taking cheap shots at people in a bid to try and browbeat them into submission.

 

I have taken two home improvements firms to Court, and two banks - all 4 cases without a solicitor. I've won all four cases by simply stating the cases clearly, concisely and referring to the appropriate legislation that protects me as a consumer. In all cases, the defendants had very expensive barristers representing them - one was over £3,000 for a half-day and lost all his claims for costs against me.

 

These bullying banks play on the ingrained fears that the average Joe Public has about Courts - they think they're expensive, biased and terribly complicated. Well, the Small Claims Courts aren't anything of the sort and the banks hate the fact that people are now realising that the Courts aren't the exclusive domain of big business and fancy overpaid lawyers.

 

You go for it, and don't let these pathetic thugs (who are just in a strop because they can't get their own way) walk over you - you have just as many rights in this country as they do.

 

They are like sulky little children who like hitting back at the nearest other child when teacher has told them off... churlish doesn't even begin to describe them.

[Janet-M]

Hi all again.

 

Sent an email last night in response to the bank's letter regarding their 'deal' which was not acceptable to me. They acknowledged the amount but not the interest and asked me to comply with their terms! I thought I was claiming against them and not the other way round?! Anyway, I sent the email and a reply arrived today. This acknowledged both the correct amount and interest BUT STILL they want me to agree to terms that basically waive any right to future claims. They also said ' if you are unable to conduct your account in accordance with the Terms and Conditions, then you should consider making alternative Banking arrangements elsewhere '.

 

I certainly dont want to surrender an option to claim in the future. I will be sending an email back stating that but would like a help with the wording, if anyone can spare a moment or two? In actual fact, I dont want to comply with ANY of the conditions, so am I pushing it?

Just repeat what you have already said ,I do not accept your offer only a full unconditional offer of settlement , will result in me withdrawing my claim .I am prepared to have an account review but not while this claim is ongoing.may I also point out that the interest is accumilating daily .. as you quite rightly say YOU are suing them and they try and dictate to you.If you keep replying with the same email they will eventually get the message.There is no need at all for long complicated answers .

 

They have not threatened to close your account so no need to quote the FSA yet .All they are doing is trying scare tactics so you comply with their terms , don't give in to them .

 

and NO you are deff not pushing it you do not have to agree with any term of theirs at all ,the only thing you have to do is settle if their offer is in full and unconditional , when it gets nearer the court date watch them back down

 

Just keep letting us know what they have to say in reply .

[larssonn]

Hi All.

 

Thanks for the replies - it keeps me motivated.

 

I had a look at the reply of xr537 and based my reply around that. Very good by the way! Lots of food for thought to keep the bank busy!

 

I sent them an email this evening pointing out their 'counting errors' and made it clear that the interest was accruing each day. I also told them that any attempt to close my account will be in breach of the Banking Code and only full settlement without any terms attached will result in a halt in the proceedings. Oh, and to keep them on their toes, I said I was confident should it go to court

 

I'll keep you all posted.

[Janet-M]

Thats the best way let them know you are confident

[larssonn]

Just checked my bank account and see that they have put in the full amount claimed as settlement. However, I have not had confirmation that the terms they tried to get me to agree to are not implied. I've sent them an email stating that they will have to give me confirmation that no terms are implied or the claim is still ongoing and will be called on Monday as originally planned.

 

Is there anything I should be wary of as im a bit suspicious of their actions? Any other advice?

 

I stil have to claim for other periods so will I have to start at the beginning and send the LBA or just email the bank and tell them that I wil go to the small claims again if they do not offer me the outstanding amount (approx £2K)?

[SurlyBonds]

No terms can be applied to you, whether express or implied, unless you signed their grotty piece of paper.

 

If they state that they have applied any terms, ask them for a copy of them with your signature showing that you agreed to them.

 

They are, effectively, trying to impose new terms and conditions (albeit additional and/or adjustments) mid-way through an open-ended contract.

 

Read through Schedule 2 of the UTCC Regs and tot up how many clauses that infringe!

[larssonn]

UPDATE: Got an email stating that 'the Bank is happy for your account status to remain as it is and will, therefore, not impose any further terms as set out in my earlier e-mail '. So I suppose thats the end of that claim?! I need to inform the court, so away to do that now. CAG can look forward to getting a donation soon!

[SurlyBonds]

Just a point... did they also refund your Court fee? i,e, settle the whole COurt Claim in full or just your basic charges?

[mario]

Also who were their solicitors.

[larssonn]

Hi all

 

They settled the full amount of the charges, the interest calculated at 8% from the date of initial charge to yesterday (Thu 11 Aug) and my summons fee. The solicitor was Derek Macleod - Solicitor, Legal, Henry Duncan House - would that be right?